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What a strange list. Many books I'd never expect to be listed, others I'd expect to be listed are missing. So I looked up the background and indeed it's based o
by onli 7mo ago
What a strange list. Many books I'd never expect to be listed, others I'd expect to be listed are missing. So I looked up the background and indeed it's based on strange methodology, citing wikipedia: "Starting from a preliminary list of 200 titles created by bookshops and journalists, 17,000 French participants responded to the question, "Which books have stuck in your mind?" (Quels livres sont restés dans votre mémoire?"
Makes more sense like that.
- jdsnape 7mo agoOut of interest, why does that seem a strange methodology?
- onli 7mo agoWhen reading "Books of the Century" I expected a list of the most important, most influential or just best books. Skewed towards the french perspective, given Le Monde as a source. But this was never the goal, just a "what stuck in your mind" question. For example, 1984 is missing, and Louis Begley Wartime Lies. And I wouldn't have expected Ulysses in there given the french source, for me it was incomprehensible gibberish and I thought only the US ranks it high. But that gibberishness makes it certainly memorable, so given the question it fits.
- jkingsbery 7mo ago1984 is 22 on the list.
- onli 7mo agoUpps. Searching for 1984 didn't turn it up.
- Karuma 7mo ago1984 is N°22 on that list...
- Guestmodinfo 7mo agoJames Joyce wearing his bottle bottom glasses (thick glasses) would like to have a word with you. You can call him genius, dirty, knowledgeable in many languages but certainly not gibberish. He used to hold long book club style readings of his books among the prominent literateur in his times to exactly impinge in their minds that what he writes is clever and not gibberish. In our book club we often discuss for hours what he was trying to say on a page. Sometimes he says things in 3 different dimensions by writing a single sentence.
- onli 7mo agoAre you sure you are not just reinforcing my point? :)
- RcouF1uZ4gsC 7mo agoYep. > He used to hold long book club style readings of his books among the prominent literateur in his times to exactly impinge in their minds that what he writes is clever and not gibberish. My was so clever, that he had to verbally harangue people into finding his writing clever.
- jpfromlondon 7mo agoWoolf had his number, she was right on every count.
- rorytbyrne 7mo agoUlysses was first published in Paris during the 20 years that Joyce lived there. >I thought only the US ranks it high Joyce never even set foot in the United States... You could say this about The Great Gatsby, which US sources might rank in the top 5 compared to 46 in this list.
- onli 7mo agoRight, Great Gatsby is another book one could highlight, where it's surprising that it is on the (french) list, while it would be on an US list. But I haven't read it, I do not know whether it is a good example for the difference between a good or important book and a memorable one.
- keiferski 7mo ago1984 is listed at number 22 under its actual title, written out.
- mmooss 7mo agoUlysses was written in Paris, where James Joyce lived, and was published in Paris by the now legendary Shakespeare & Co. The US and UK banned it for being obscene. When I don't know, I ask and don't judge (and lacking omniscience, I don't judge anyway).
- onli 7mo agoIt's completely irrelevant where it was written, where it was published and where it was banned, I'm talking about how it is seen today. It is possible I am getting this wrong -certainly possible, since I'm taking this impression from English speaking sites like this, that I attribute to the US what should be attributed to England -, but I have seen no argument so far that even strives the point I made.
- bondarchuk 7mo agoWhat is your question? If you just want to know why Ulysses is seen as influential you can start with the wikipedia article. If you want to try again to read it you can try to read it with a guide of some kind, there are multiple, I used this one https://www.ulyssesguide.com/1-telemachus https://www.ulyssesguide.com/1-telemachus.
- onli 7mo agoNo question. It's completely against my being to consider something as good if it can't be enjoyed without a guide. I hated the tendency in computer science to hide simple definitions behind jargon. I'm okay with stuff having hidden meaning, with texts being interpretable, I'm not okay with it just being gibberish when not studying it in closest detail. I'm aware that some think this book is influential, I'm not clear on how widespread that belief is. Also, whether regular readers really like it. And no, Wikipedia does not clear that up.
- bondarchuk 7mo agoSince you have no question I won't venture to answer. :D
- shakow 7mo ago> most influential > "what stuck in your mind" That's strongly correlated IMHO; and I don't really see any objective metric for the influence of a book anyway.
- jhbadger 7mo agoIf you found Ulysses confusing, what would you think of Finnegan's Wake? Ulysses is practically a children's book in comparison. As for the lack of 1984, Orwell was an important author sure, but not particularly a good one. People read 1984 and Animal Farm for the messages, not for the exquisite prose that someone like Joyce can manage.
- onli 7mo agoSorry, I haven't tried to read that one. If it's even more, hm, abstract?, then I won't ever try. Note that 1984 is listed, just as "Nineteen Eighty-Four". I missed it when searching, didn't think of searching for "Orwell" instead. I'd disagree with you about its quality, I remember it fondly (well, as much as possible given the topic of having one's identity erased), it was a powerful experience - and I do remember it vividly, so when asked for books one remembers I'd absolutely mention it, and in a list of books of the century it does belong. Joyce "prose" on the other hand did nothing for me but make me despise his book.
- malloryerik 7mo agoIf you want a shot at liking Joyce try "Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man."
- hammock 7mo agoStarting with only 200 titles in the survey, for a final list of 100, seems off to me for starters. Every book surveyed has a 50% chance of making “book of the century”
- tstenner 7mo agoThat makes it sound like 50 shades of grey would have had a 50/50 chance of getting into the top 100 if it only was included in the wider selection
- onli 7mo agoIf the question is "which book stuck in your mind" maybe it would've had a good chance to be listed as #1?
- hammock 7mo agoObviously 50/50 if random. But even if not random, I estimate 50 Shades would be 500-100,000 times more likely to be a book of the century using a list of 200 with it in it, vs an unaided open ended survey.
- wodenokoto 7mo agoIt’s a shortlist that is ranked by a committee, just like how the Oscar’s have nominees and winners. Or put another way “Every book surveyed” does a lot of heavy lifting here.
- kergonath 7mo ago> Many books I'd never expect to be listed, others I'd expect to be listed are missing Most of them make sense to me. I don’t know some of them but then I don’t know everything. The methodology can be discussed (and indeed, a pre-selection of 200 books is at the same time a lot and not that much), but none of these lists can be perfect. Out of curiosity, which one would you remove from the list, and which ones would you add?
- onli 7mo agoHm, you are right. Those lists can't be perfect and giving this a second look, I guess my comment was hasty. For the choices I thought weird I can mostly see the justification when researching the titles a bit more (and partly by checking for their names in my language -> properly identifying them). For what it's worth and what mostly triggered my comment, I expected 1984 to be on the list but thought it missing, but as mentioned in the other comments I was wrong about that, it's just listed with the numbers written out. Le petit prince I wouldn't have wanted on the list, I know it's popular and french, but I never got the appeal. Ulysses, as mentioned below, surprised me as I thought it's only popular in some countries, and regardless of that I think its just not readable. I would kick out two of the Lord of the ring books, one is enough and it's not like each of them had a different impact. Maybe even more subjective, The Hound of the Baskervilles is important and well known and everything, but does it really held up when you read it today? If not, which would be my opinion, should it be on the list regardless? And I'd consider replacing Thomas Mann Zauberberg with Tod in Venedig, just because I liked it a lot. For missing books: Louis Begley is an author I felt to be missing, probably with Wartime lies, or About Schmidt. The first Harry Potter as well, but I understand that in 1999 it was too early for that judgement. Stephenson's Snow Crash is missing, maybe replaceable with Neuromancer to have something of that genre. Talking german literature with Thomas Mann above, Alfred Andersch Die Rote would have a place on my personal list, as well as Die Wand by Marlen Haushofer. Haruki Murakami is missing, though maybe with 1Q84 he better fits into a list of the current century. Stephen King? Paul Auster? Philip Roth? Though maybe that would be for The Human Stain, and that's from 2000. As an aside, I was happily surprised to see The Master and Margarita on the list. It's one of the more known books that I thought had a very special charm, but not one I'd expect to see working on many, as one would have to have read Goethe's Faust and liked it...
- keiferski 7mo agoHow is this strange? It’s pretty much what I’d expect from francophone readers. What were you expecting?
- linehedonist 7mo agoFor a French-leaning list I’m surprised not to see Memoirs of Hadrian, “often considered the best French novel of the 20th century”, per the recent LRB review. https://www.lrb.co.uk/the-paper/v47/n10/joanna-biggs/beneath-the-white-scarf https://www.lrb.co.uk/the-paper/v47/n10/joanna-biggs/beneath...
- idoubtit 7mo agoI agree, though the list contains "L'œuvre au noir", another wonderful novel by Marguerite Yourcenar. I think some of the books on this list had very few readers, but were selected because of their relative fame among a list of 200 books. For instance, how many people have read the full "Gulag archipelago"? Or writings by Lacan or Barthes? Or the "Journal" by Jules Renard?