5 ms·

But then public transport has to improve also. You cant make owning a car impossible without offering alternatives.

tikhonj 7mo ago
None of the changes in the comment make owning a car impossible, they just make driving marginally less privileged over walking and biking.
- the_biot 7mo ago
  No, it's worse than that. The city council very much implemented an anti-car (harassment) policy, to the point that car owners felt hounded by their own council's policies. It seriously wasn't a matter of "marginally less privileged".
  - TimK65 7mo ago
    Motorists are incredibly fragile. I'm glad Paris has had a mayor who could stand up to their entitled whinging.
    - yulker 7mo ago
      Interesting how correctly naming them motorists sharpens how "the default" is often to be presumed drivers and pedestrians and cyclists are marginal
      - rootusrootus 7mo ago
        I don’t know that it’s a helpful distinction. A lot of people do it all - drive, walk, bike, and take public transit. Only in this kind of discussion do I see people declaring it a team you have to choose.
    - dwedge 7mo ago
      Motorists are an easy scapegoat but without alternatives it's just political handwaving. And most people are motorists. Take my city for example. I work in an office block around a 15 minute walk from the centre, which has free parking for employees. Monday this week the city announced that the land is now paid parking to the city effective immediately. When it was pointed out they they hadn't provided any of the necessary signage or machines for this, they decided it was illegal to park there at all, with fines and tow trucks for non compliance. An email from them suggested "cycling or using public transport as the weather is nicer". I cannot stress this enough. No warning, no compromise, no other use for this land, just an immediate draconian announcement. It's very easy to call another group entitled if you're not one of them
      - enriquto 7mo ago
        > the city announced that the land is now paid parking to the city what a strange way to put it... why didn't they just say that they are not using any more taxpayer money to finance your parking space? Land in a city is not "for free". > It's very easy to call another group entitled if you're not one of them yeah, well: my point, exactly!
        bluGill 7mo ago
        You miss the larger point not mentioned: all those motorists will be mad and looking to vote for someone next election that will undo it all.
        input_sh 7mo ago
        Your job in any political office is not to leave everything as-is and to cement yourself into that position, but to make marginal improvements, even if doing so costs you the next elections or inconveniences people (hopefully only temporarily). Most of those marginal improvements can only be seen as something positive in retrospective, not while they're being made. While they're being made, they'll always be unpopular, as the voter base is usually not keen on defending the people that are currently in charge. That doesn't mean they won't show up in the next elections, just that they are quieter in the meantime.
    - stef25 7mo ago
      > Motorists are incredibly fragile Until you throw yourself in front of my car
      - alamortsubite 7mo ago
        > > Motorists are incredibly fragile > Until you throw yourself in front of my car Fragile with regard to their egos, as illustrated here.
  - jadyoyster 7mo ago
    Imagine how "hounded" everyone else feels by driver friendly polies in other cities.
  - Mawr 7mo ago
    The starting point is anti-anything-but-a-car, so it's understandable that in the process of getting to any sort of parity you'd feel like it's "harassment". It's like claiming getting rid of slavery is "harassment", because your unfair privileges are being taken back.
  - hamdingers 7mo ago
    When one is accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression.
rsynnott 7mo ago
Generally, restrictions on cars make public transport better automatically, as they make buses work better.
- zahlman 7mo ago
  It certainly helps the buses move more efficiently, but it can't do much about things like bus stop placement, or just generally sense of place as you start or end your trip.
  - alamortsubite 7mo ago
    > it can't do much about things like bus stop placement Why not? Fewer cars means more room for bus stops.
    - zahlman 7mo ago
      Because there has to be a place where the bus stop could sensibly be. A history of car-centric design often eliminates those opportunities.
      - alamortsubite 7mo ago
        I see. I think you're talking about stop placement on a higher level? Removing street parking can free up room for lots of extra stops, which can help with bus bunching: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus_bunching https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus_bunching
        zahlman 7mo ago
        I'm talking about what you physically see, or even step over, at the actual physical location where you're contemplating putting the bus stop; which is there because people were only thinking about cars when doing the zoning and construction.
    - bluGill 7mo ago
stalfie 7mo ago
Alternatives naturally become more viable over time as more and more people find car use impossible, but its kind of hard to tell in advance which lanes of public transport are most necessary to improve. So imo the best solution is just to do it, and then see what happens and adapt. It's too hard to plan out everything in advance, and if you try you get deadlocked politically and nothing ends up happening. So you just find the best lever you can to reduce traffic immediately, and just start pressing it. But you warn everyone that you're pressing it, and when you do so you do it slowly. The reality is that a lot of traffic is simply unnecessary, and dissipates once you add some friction. The most extreme example of that is the rise of remote work during and after Covid. As it turns out, none of these people actually needed to go anywhere. And more generally, cars induce their own demand simply by virtue of being the fastest and most comfortable option, and they shape the environment around them to depend on them. Small local shops get outcompeted by distant behemoths due it being more convenient to drive. People move to a large house in a distant suburb rather than a small apartment because they know it's just thirty minutes away from work by car anyways. The easier it is to drive, the more entrenched driving becomes. And any way you slice it, undoing that process will cause pain, so you might as well go ahead and start, because you're never going to find a way to prevent the consequences anyway.

None of the changes in the comment make owning a car impossible, they just make driving marginally less privileged over walking and biking.

the_biot 7mo ago
No, it's worse than that. The city council very much implemented an anti-car (harassment) policy, to the point that car owners felt hounded by their own council's policies. It seriously wasn't a matter of "marginally less privileged".
- TimK65 7mo ago
  Motorists are incredibly fragile. I'm glad Paris has had a mayor who could stand up to their entitled whinging.
  - yulker 7mo ago
    Interesting how correctly naming them motorists sharpens how "the default" is often to be presumed drivers and pedestrians and cyclists are marginal
    - rootusrootus 7mo ago
      I don’t know that it’s a helpful distinction. A lot of people do it all - drive, walk, bike, and take public transit. Only in this kind of discussion do I see people declaring it a team you have to choose.
  - dwedge 7mo ago
    Motorists are an easy scapegoat but without alternatives it's just political handwaving. And most people are motorists. Take my city for example. I work in an office block around a 15 minute walk from the centre, which has free parking for employees. Monday this week the city announced that the land is now paid parking to the city effective immediately. When it was pointed out they they hadn't provided any of the necessary signage or machines for this, they decided it was illegal to park there at all, with fines and tow trucks for non compliance. An email from them suggested "cycling or using public transport as the weather is nicer". I cannot stress this enough. No warning, no compromise, no other use for this land, just an immediate draconian announcement. It's very easy to call another group entitled if you're not one of them
    - enriquto 7mo ago
      > the city announced that the land is now paid parking to the city what a strange way to put it... why didn't they just say that they are not using any more taxpayer money to finance your parking space? Land in a city is not "for free". > It's very easy to call another group entitled if you're not one of them yeah, well: my point, exactly!
      - bluGill 7mo ago
        You miss the larger point not mentioned: all those motorists will be mad and looking to vote for someone next election that will undo it all.
        input_sh 7mo ago
        Your job in any political office is not to leave everything as-is and to cement yourself into that position, but to make marginal improvements, even if doing so costs you the next elections or inconveniences people (hopefully only temporarily). Most of those marginal improvements can only be seen as something positive in retrospective, not while they're being made. While they're being made, they'll always be unpopular, as the voter base is usually not keen on defending the people that are currently in charge. That doesn't mean they won't show up in the next elections, just that they are quieter in the meantime.
  - stef25 7mo ago
    > Motorists are incredibly fragile Until you throw yourself in front of my car
    - alamortsubite 7mo ago
      > > Motorists are incredibly fragile > Until you throw yourself in front of my car Fragile with regard to their egos, as illustrated here.
- jadyoyster 7mo ago
  Imagine how "hounded" everyone else feels by driver friendly polies in other cities.
- Mawr 7mo ago
  The starting point is anti-anything-but-a-car, so it's understandable that in the process of getting to any sort of parity you'd feel like it's "harassment". It's like claiming getting rid of slavery is "harassment", because your unfair privileges are being taken back.
- hamdingers 7mo ago
  When one is accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression.

rsynnott 7mo ago

Generally, restrictions on cars make public transport better automatically, as they make buses work better.

zahlman 7mo ago
It certainly helps the buses move more efficiently, but it can't do much about things like bus stop placement, or just generally sense of place as you start or end your trip.
- alamortsubite 7mo ago
  > it can't do much about things like bus stop placement Why not? Fewer cars means more room for bus stops.
  - zahlman 7mo ago
    Because there has to be a place where the bus stop could sensibly be. A history of car-centric design often eliminates those opportunities.
    - alamortsubite 7mo ago
      I see. I think you're talking about stop placement on a higher level? Removing street parking can free up room for lots of extra stops, which can help with bus bunching: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus_bunching https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus_bunching
      - zahlman 7mo ago
        I'm talking about what you physically see, or even step over, at the actual physical location where you're contemplating putting the bus stop; which is there because people were only thinking about cars when doing the zoning and construction.
  - bluGill 7mo ago

stalfie 7mo ago

Alternatives naturally become more viable over time as more and more people find car use impossible, but its kind of hard to tell in advance which lanes of public transport are most necessary to improve. So imo the best solution is just to do it, and then see what happens and adapt. It's too hard to plan out everything in advance, and if you try you get deadlocked politically and nothing ends up happening. So you just find the best lever you can to reduce traffic immediately, and just start pressing it. But you warn everyone that you're pressing it, and when you do so you do it slowly. The reality is that a lot of traffic is simply unnecessary, and dissipates once you add some friction. The most extreme example of that is the rise of remote work during and after Covid. As it turns out, none of these people actually needed to go anywhere. And more generally, cars induce their own demand simply by virtue of being the fastest and most comfortable option, and they shape the environment around them to depend on them. Small local shops get outcompeted by distant behemoths due it being more convenient to drive. People move to a large house in a distant suburb rather than a small apartment because they know it's just thirty minutes away from work by car anyways. The easier it is to drive, the more entrenched driving becomes. And any way you slice it, undoing that process will cause pain, so you might as well go ahead and start, because you're never going to find a way to prevent the consequences anyway.