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>Which Gorbachev himself said never happened He lied.[0] No one wants to look like a fool. >Before 2014 almost no one in Ukraine wanted to join NATO. After 20

by drysine 7mo ago

>Which Gorbachev himself said never happened He lied.[0] No one wants to look like a fool. >Before 2014 almost no one in Ukraine wanted to join NATO. After 2014 almost everyone wanted to join NATO. Pro-Western Ukrainian president submitted request to join NATO in 2008 and the NATO response was positive. And your statement is false, before 2014 there was significant minority that favored joining NATO and after 2014 the percentage grew but was very far from "almost everyone" >It couldn't be Russia who's to blame, could it? That's typical response. Now please tell me why the security concerns of these countries has to be respected and Russia's security concerns don't? >Just like Russia is midwifing crises and elections actoss Europe and countries like Georgia and Azerbaijan Russia has never supported any coups in Europe or in Georgia and Azerbaijan. [0] https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2017-12-12/nato-expansion-what-gorbachev-heard-western-leaders-early https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2017...

wiseowise 7mo ago
> Pro-Western Ukrainian president submitted request to join NATO in 2008 and the NATO response was positive. I wonder where it came from [0][1]. > That's typical response. Now please tell me why the security concerns of these countries has to be respected and Russia's security concerns don't? World superpower (according to Russians themselves) has security concerns about checks notes Ukraine, Baltics, Georgia, Poland, Finland. Seems about right, judging by how war in Ukraine goes. > Russia has never supported any coups in Europe or in Georgia and Azerbaijan. My fucking eyes, lmao. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_Russia#Russian_Federation_(1991%E2%80%93present) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_Russia#... [0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Georgian_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Georgian_War [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005%E2%80%932006_Russia%E2%80%93Ukraine_gas_dispute https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005%E2%80%932006_Russia%E2%80...
- drysine 7mo ago
  >I wonder where it came from [0][1] I don't know what your links supposed to mean. Yushchenko had time machine and he decided to ask to join NATO after seeing the future in which Georgia attacked South Ossetia[0] emboldened by getting the same promise of future NATO membership? Or Yushchenko got upset that Russia didn't let Ukraine steal Russian gas intended for European countries? Here is the quotation from the very top of the article you linked to: "The conflict began when Russia claimed that Ukraine was not paying for gas and was diverting gas bound from Russia to the European Union from pipelines that crossed the country. Ukrainian officials at first denied the last accusation,but later Naftogaz admitted it used some gas intended for other European countries for domestic needs. " >Seems about right, judging by how war in Ukraine goes. So what's your point? >My fucking eyes, lmao. When you deal with your eye problems, maybe you could provide an example supporting your point. [0] https://www.reuters.com/article/world/georgia-started-war-with-russia-eu-backed-report-idUSTRE58T4MO/ https://www.reuters.com/article/world/georgia-started-war-wi...
troupo 7mo ago
> He lied.[0] No one wants to look like a fool. Your oft-cited link doesn't support the "100% NATO said they wouldn't expand" and it's a verbal statement that wasn't even ratified anywhere. Unlike, you know, multiple treaties Russia has with, say, Ukraine. But if you're holding verbal agreements in such high esteem, Putin himself said he doesn't care if Ukraine joins NATO. > Pro-Western Ukrainian president submitted request to join NATO in 2008 and the NATO response was positive. You mean "just some the NATO members were positive and within the country the request was so unpopular that it led to public protests". > before 2014 there was significant minority that favored joining My statement was definitely an exaggeration. However support for joining NATO: - before 2014 was hovering around 20% on a good day, and the request to join NATO was met with strong opposition and public protests. - after 2014 support spiked to 50 and then to 70, and then slowly subsided. Gee I wonder why - After 2022 it's been around 80%. I wonder why. Truly it's all the fault of the expansionist NATO. > Now please tell me why the security concerns of these countries has to be respected and Russia's security concerns don't Russia's "security concerns": "if you subhumans don't do exactly what we say, we invade you and subjugate you, you are not a real country anyway". Now tell me, who exactly is responsible for public opinion in Ukraine turning from "nope, we don't want NATO", to "yes, we overwhelmingly want to be in NATO"? I mean, you seem to absolve Russia of any and all responsibility. > Russia has never supported any coups in Europe or in Georgia and Azerbaijan. Ahahahhahahahahahahahha. This is the literal quote of what I said: "Russia is midwifing crises and elections actoss Europe and countries like Georgia and Azerbaijan". If you claim that Russia is not complicit in this, I don't know what to tell you. But sure, in your eyes Russia does nothing, never gets involved in everything, and that 4-year war it's waging against anither country is totally and absolutely justified because Russia.
- drysine 7mo ago
  I gave you a link to the video where former American ambassador to the USSR is saying "though it was not a legally binding assurance, we gave categorical assurances to Gorbachev, back when the Soviet Union existed, that if a United Germany was able to stay in NATO, NATO would not be moved eastward". You argue like you haven't seen it. >just some the NATO members were positive That's not true, the alliance itself gave the assurances.[0] >the request was so unpopular The polls consistently showed that, but it hadn't stopped Yuschenko from submitting the request. >Russia's "security concerns": "if you subhumans don't do exactly what we say, we invade you and subjugate you, you are not a real country anyway". And this dismissive attitude towards legitimate security concerns of Russia led to the current situation. >This is the literal quote of what I said You forgot to quote "Just like". "the US "midwifing" the coup in Ukraine in 2014" isn't "just like" what you wrote. Besides, you haven't even offered any sources for your statements. Is it because you blame Russia for anything you don't like? [0] https://www.nato.int/en/about-us/official-texts-and-resources/official-texts/2008/04/03/bucharest-summit-declaration https://www.nato.int/en/about-us/official-texts-and-resource...
mopsi 7mo ago
> He lied.[0] No one wants to look like a fool. He didn't. Talks about NATO's future were limited to East Germany alone and written down into the articles 4 and 5 of the so-called "4+2 treaty" from 1990, which settled the post-reunification status of East Germany. In the treaty, it was agreed that foreign NATO forces would not enter East Germany before Soviet forces had withdrawn (by 1994). The treaty: https://web.archive.org/web/20220116001812/http://foto.archivalware.co.uk/data/Library2/pdf/1991-TS0088.pdf https://web.archive.org/web/20220116001812/http://foto.archi... It's absurd to even suggest anything beyond that, because post-reunification Germany was to border the Warsaw Pact. Even theoretically, there was nowhere for NATO to "expand." Gorbachev's team did not foresee the dissolution of the Warsaw Pact the following year.

by drysine 7mo ago

wiseowise 7mo ago

> Pro-Western Ukrainian president submitted request to join NATO in 2008 and the NATO response was positive. I wonder where it came from [0][1]. > That's typical response. Now please tell me why the security concerns of these countries has to be respected and Russia's security concerns don't? World superpower (according to Russians themselves) has security concerns about checks notes Ukraine, Baltics, Georgia, Poland, Finland. Seems about right, judging by how war in Ukraine goes. > Russia has never supported any coups in Europe or in Georgia and Azerbaijan. My fucking eyes, lmao. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_Russia#Russian_Federation_(1991%E2%80%93present) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_Russia#... [0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Georgian_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Georgian_War [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005%E2%80%932006_Russia%E2%80%93Ukraine_gas_dispute https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005%E2%80%932006_Russia%E2%80...

drysine 7mo ago
>I wonder where it came from [0][1] I don't know what your links supposed to mean. Yushchenko had time machine and he decided to ask to join NATO after seeing the future in which Georgia attacked South Ossetia[0] emboldened by getting the same promise of future NATO membership? Or Yushchenko got upset that Russia didn't let Ukraine steal Russian gas intended for European countries? Here is the quotation from the very top of the article you linked to: "The conflict began when Russia claimed that Ukraine was not paying for gas and was diverting gas bound from Russia to the European Union from pipelines that crossed the country. Ukrainian officials at first denied the last accusation,but later Naftogaz admitted it used some gas intended for other European countries for domestic needs. " >Seems about right, judging by how war in Ukraine goes. So what's your point? >My fucking eyes, lmao. When you deal with your eye problems, maybe you could provide an example supporting your point. [0] https://www.reuters.com/article/world/georgia-started-war-with-russia-eu-backed-report-idUSTRE58T4MO/ https://www.reuters.com/article/world/georgia-started-war-wi...

troupo 7mo ago

> He lied.[0] No one wants to look like a fool. Your oft-cited link doesn't support the "100% NATO said they wouldn't expand" and it's a verbal statement that wasn't even ratified anywhere. Unlike, you know, multiple treaties Russia has with, say, Ukraine. But if you're holding verbal agreements in such high esteem, Putin himself said he doesn't care if Ukraine joins NATO. > Pro-Western Ukrainian president submitted request to join NATO in 2008 and the NATO response was positive. You mean "just some the NATO members were positive and within the country the request was so unpopular that it led to public protests". > before 2014 there was significant minority that favored joining My statement was definitely an exaggeration. However support for joining NATO: - before 2014 was hovering around 20% on a good day, and the request to join NATO was met with strong opposition and public protests. - after 2014 support spiked to 50 and then to 70, and then slowly subsided. Gee I wonder why - After 2022 it's been around 80%. I wonder why. Truly it's all the fault of the expansionist NATO. > Now please tell me why the security concerns of these countries has to be respected and Russia's security concerns don't Russia's "security concerns": "if you subhumans don't do exactly what we say, we invade you and subjugate you, you are not a real country anyway". Now tell me, who exactly is responsible for public opinion in Ukraine turning from "nope, we don't want NATO", to "yes, we overwhelmingly want to be in NATO"? I mean, you seem to absolve Russia of any and all responsibility. > Russia has never supported any coups in Europe or in Georgia and Azerbaijan. Ahahahhahahahahahahahha. This is the literal quote of what I said: "Russia is midwifing crises and elections actoss Europe and countries like Georgia and Azerbaijan". If you claim that Russia is not complicit in this, I don't know what to tell you. But sure, in your eyes Russia does nothing, never gets involved in everything, and that 4-year war it's waging against anither country is totally and absolutely justified because Russia.

drysine 7mo ago
I gave you a link to the video where former American ambassador to the USSR is saying "though it was not a legally binding assurance, we gave categorical assurances to Gorbachev, back when the Soviet Union existed, that if a United Germany was able to stay in NATO, NATO would not be moved eastward". You argue like you haven't seen it. >just some the NATO members were positive That's not true, the alliance itself gave the assurances.[0] >the request was so unpopular The polls consistently showed that, but it hadn't stopped Yuschenko from submitting the request. >Russia's "security concerns": "if you subhumans don't do exactly what we say, we invade you and subjugate you, you are not a real country anyway". And this dismissive attitude towards legitimate security concerns of Russia led to the current situation. >This is the literal quote of what I said You forgot to quote "Just like". "the US "midwifing" the coup in Ukraine in 2014" isn't "just like" what you wrote. Besides, you haven't even offered any sources for your statements. Is it because you blame Russia for anything you don't like? [0] https://www.nato.int/en/about-us/official-texts-and-resources/official-texts/2008/04/03/bucharest-summit-declaration https://www.nato.int/en/about-us/official-texts-and-resource...

mopsi 7mo ago

> He lied.[0] No one wants to look like a fool. He didn't. Talks about NATO's future were limited to East Germany alone and written down into the articles 4 and 5 of the so-called "4+2 treaty" from 1990, which settled the post-reunification status of East Germany. In the treaty, it was agreed that foreign NATO forces would not enter East Germany before Soviet forces had withdrawn (by 1994). The treaty: https://web.archive.org/web/20220116001812/http://foto.archivalware.co.uk/data/Library2/pdf/1991-TS0088.pdf https://web.archive.org/web/20220116001812/http://foto.archi... It's absurd to even suggest anything beyond that, because post-reunification Germany was to border the Warsaw Pact. Even theoretically, there was nowhere for NATO to "expand." Gorbachev's team did not foresee the dissolution of the Warsaw Pact the following year.