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They said Chinese law, which is not the same as American law, and presumably using IP the way they have is legal there, if indeed they actually did, as allegati

They said Chinese law, which is not the same as American law, and presumably using IP the way they have is legal there, if indeed they actually did, as allegations of IP theft are just that, allegations, and even if they weren't, all nations in the history of mankind have been "stealing" "intellectual property" since forever, including the US from Britain, literally with the good graces of the fledgling US government [0]. As to what Anthropic said, it's quite specious as this analysis shows [1], ie the amount of "exchanges" is only tantamount to a single day or two of promoting, not nearly enough to actually get good RL training data from. Regardless, it's not as if other American LLM companies obtained training data legitimately, whatever that means in today's world. [0] https://theworld.org/stories/2014/02/18/us-complains-other-nations-are-stealing-us-technology-america-has-history https://theworld.org/stories/2014/02/18/us-complains-other-n... [1] https://youtu.be/_k22WAEAfpE https://youtu.be/_k22WAEAfpE

hakunin 8mo ago
The linked wikipedia article specifically talks about China struggling to enforce Chinese law. Here's a quote: > Despite making efforts in intellectual property protection in China, a major obstacle in prosecution is corruption in courts; local protectionism and political influence prohibits effective enforcement of intellectual property laws. To help overcome local corruption, China established specialized IP courts and sharply increased financial penalties. > all nations in the history of mankind have been "stealing" "intellectual property" since forever You can't use 100-400 years ago as the counterexample to what happens today. It's like justifying Russian invasion of Ukraine with colonists invading Native American territories. We're in a different world order, things that were normalized that far back shouldn't be normalized today.
- satvikpendem 8mo ago
  They are struggling to enforce domestic IP law because it directly affects their own businesses, they don't care about international IP law. Human nature is the same in any time period, there is no "normalization" at all, it's just how humans have always and will always continue to act, even today, with the world order currently breaking down.
  - hakunin 8mo ago
    Human nature may be the same, but it differs based on context. Humans act differently in a threatening high risk, low order world than they do in a more stable, lawful world. There is normalization, because in a pre-nuclear, pre-military alliance, pre-diplomacy, pre-world-police world you had to be much more ruthless and cunning as a state. The norms for people were completely different.
    - satvikpendem 8mo ago
      I see no evidence that they do act substantially differently post nukes given everything going on in the world in the news today. Regardless, this thread is going off topic, have a good day.
- geocar 8mo ago
  > The linked wikipedia article specifically talks about China struggling to enforce Chinese law. Here's a quote: > > Despite making efforts in intellectual property protection in China, a major obstacle in prosecution is corruption in courts; local protectionism and political influence prohibits effective enforcement of intellectual property laws. To help overcome local corruption, China established specialized IP courts and sharply increased financial penalties. That doesn't sound like struggling to me. https://www.matec-conferences.org/articles/matecconf/pdf/2018/87/matecconf_cas2018_05013.pdf https://www.matec-conferences.org/articles/matecconf/pdf/201... Compare with the growth in cases in the US: https://www.uscourts.gov/data-news/judiciary-news/2020/02/13/just-facts-intellectual-property-cases-patent-copyright-and-trademark https://www.uscourts.gov/data-news/judiciary-news/2020/02/13... Why is it China increasing cases is evidence of struggling to you? Do you think the US is also struggling? What exactly are you talking about? > You can't use 100-400 years ago as the counterexample to what happens today. The US joined the Berne convention in 1988. I do not think we are talking about 400 years ago, but we're talking about the majority of the US history, having law that it was okay to ignore copyrights of the rest of the world. > It's like justifying Russian invasion of Ukraine with colonists invading Native American territories I don't agree: One can also mean that there is no justification for the invasion of the Ukraine just like there was no justification for invading American territories.
  - hakunin 8mo ago
    > Why is it China increasing cases is evidence of struggling to you? Do you think the US is also struggling? What exactly are you talking about? I didn't say anything about increasing cases. "a major obstacle in prosecution is corruption in courts; local protectionism and political influence prohibits effective enforcement of intellectual property laws" > we're talking about the majority of the US history, having law that it was okay to ignore copyrights of the rest of the world. For the majority of world history slavery was the norm. _Majority_ of history doesn't matter. What matters is the order established in recent history. > there was no justification for invading American territories Colonization was normalized and institutionalized at that time way more than land invasion and annexation today. It's not even close.
    - 8mo ago
- ywvcbk 8mo ago
  > You can't use 100-400 years ago as the counterexample Or just a year or two ago? > https://www.npr.org/2025/09/05/nx-s1-5529404/anthropic-settlement-authors-copyright-ai https://www.npr.org/2025/09/05/nx-s1-5529404/anthropic-settl...
  - hakunin 8mo ago
    I don’t mind blaming Anthropic, but you linked to them settling.

hakunin 8mo ago

The linked wikipedia article specifically talks about China struggling to enforce Chinese law. Here's a quote: > Despite making efforts in intellectual property protection in China, a major obstacle in prosecution is corruption in courts; local protectionism and political influence prohibits effective enforcement of intellectual property laws. To help overcome local corruption, China established specialized IP courts and sharply increased financial penalties. > all nations in the history of mankind have been "stealing" "intellectual property" since forever You can't use 100-400 years ago as the counterexample to what happens today. It's like justifying Russian invasion of Ukraine with colonists invading Native American territories. We're in a different world order, things that were normalized that far back shouldn't be normalized today.

satvikpendem 8mo ago
They are struggling to enforce domestic IP law because it directly affects their own businesses, they don't care about international IP law. Human nature is the same in any time period, there is no "normalization" at all, it's just how humans have always and will always continue to act, even today, with the world order currently breaking down.
- hakunin 8mo ago
  Human nature may be the same, but it differs based on context. Humans act differently in a threatening high risk, low order world than they do in a more stable, lawful world. There is normalization, because in a pre-nuclear, pre-military alliance, pre-diplomacy, pre-world-police world you had to be much more ruthless and cunning as a state. The norms for people were completely different.
  - satvikpendem 8mo ago
    I see no evidence that they do act substantially differently post nukes given everything going on in the world in the news today. Regardless, this thread is going off topic, have a good day.
geocar 8mo ago
> The linked wikipedia article specifically talks about China struggling to enforce Chinese law. Here's a quote: > > Despite making efforts in intellectual property protection in China, a major obstacle in prosecution is corruption in courts; local protectionism and political influence prohibits effective enforcement of intellectual property laws. To help overcome local corruption, China established specialized IP courts and sharply increased financial penalties. That doesn't sound like struggling to me. https://www.matec-conferences.org/articles/matecconf/pdf/2018/87/matecconf_cas2018_05013.pdf https://www.matec-conferences.org/articles/matecconf/pdf/201... Compare with the growth in cases in the US: https://www.uscourts.gov/data-news/judiciary-news/2020/02/13/just-facts-intellectual-property-cases-patent-copyright-and-trademark https://www.uscourts.gov/data-news/judiciary-news/2020/02/13... Why is it China increasing cases is evidence of struggling to you? Do you think the US is also struggling? What exactly are you talking about? > You can't use 100-400 years ago as the counterexample to what happens today. The US joined the Berne convention in 1988. I do not think we are talking about 400 years ago, but we're talking about the majority of the US history, having law that it was okay to ignore copyrights of the rest of the world. > It's like justifying Russian invasion of Ukraine with colonists invading Native American territories I don't agree: One can also mean that there is no justification for the invasion of the Ukraine just like there was no justification for invading American territories.
- hakunin 8mo ago
  > Why is it China increasing cases is evidence of struggling to you? Do you think the US is also struggling? What exactly are you talking about? I didn't say anything about increasing cases. "a major obstacle in prosecution is corruption in courts; local protectionism and political influence prohibits effective enforcement of intellectual property laws" > we're talking about the majority of the US history, having law that it was okay to ignore copyrights of the rest of the world. For the majority of world history slavery was the norm. _Majority_ of history doesn't matter. What matters is the order established in recent history. > there was no justification for invading American territories Colonization was normalized and institutionalized at that time way more than land invasion and annexation today. It's not even close.
  - 8mo ago
ywvcbk 8mo ago
> You can't use 100-400 years ago as the counterexample Or just a year or two ago? > https://www.npr.org/2025/09/05/nx-s1-5529404/anthropic-settlement-authors-copyright-ai https://www.npr.org/2025/09/05/nx-s1-5529404/anthropic-settl...
- hakunin 8mo ago
  I don’t mind blaming Anthropic, but you linked to them settling.