5 ms·

How does this happen? How do you build a fundamental OS control in react?

solid_fuel 7mo ago
This is what I'm wondering. How dysfunctional is microsoft that they shipped a react-based start menu? It reads like satire, "Windows 11 is so bad that even microsoft doesn't use native controls".
- userbinator 7mo ago
  MS also made one of the most hated IM and audiovisual meeting applications with web tech, replacing a previously (not great but much better) native one: Teams.
  - idiotsecant 7mo ago
    Teams was pretty bad when it released, but it's decent now I think.
    - mft_ 7mo ago
      It’s still randomly really slow (like, individual controls drawing one by one slow) on my recently-refreshed corporate laptop; and opening Teams was the last action before the entire Windows installation my personal laptop was nuked… but yes, it’s basically usable and reliable for video calls and team chat these days.
    - pjmlp 7mo ago
      Still no threading support.
- drysart 7mo ago
  It's not React. It's React Native. React Native and React are about as similar as JavaScript and Java. React Native is a way of orchestrating a UI comprised of native controls.
  - flohofwoe 7mo ago
    It's still baffling, since the core idea of React only makes sense as a workaround for limitations of the browser DOM. Wrapping much more flexible 'native' widget frameworks with a React layer is pure cargo culting (same with SwiftUI).
    - mft_ 7mo ago
      It tried to solve cross-platform development. That’s a legitimate issue. In retrospect, calling it React probably caused more problems than it brought benefits, and makes little sense - like Java vs JavaScript.
      - myvoiceismypass 7mo ago
        But React Native looks like plain React. Syntax the same in both cases. Java and Javascript are wholly different languages.
  - solid_fuel 7mo ago
    ok, granted, but microsoft already builds a first party way to orchestrate a UI comprised of native controls. Why do they invest so much effort into WinUI and C# if they're just going to use a 3rd party solution? Presumably the windows 11 start menu does not need to run on macOS or Linux.
    - pjmlp 7mo ago
      Because it uses C++, and C++/WinRT tooling for UI development isn't there. The team that killed C++/CX, said it isn't their problem that there aren't Visual Studio integrations like C++/CX, and eventually left C++/WinRT in maintenance and nowadays is responsible for windows-rs repo. Better not expect too much from that repo as well. Welcome to Microsoft politics.
Traubenfuchs 7mo ago
No one left who can use whatever half deprecated native actually-not-that-native windows ui framework is currently undead state of the art and not enough examples in the llm‘s to vibe code it. That leaves „web technologies“.
pjmlp 7mo ago
Plenty of stuff nowadays uses Webview2 across Windows. Not only has Project Reunion been a disaster (moving UWP regular Win32), apparently Microsoft new employees lack Windows experience, being raised in Chromebooks and Macs, apparently they aren't getting the trainings they should. You can go watch recordings of the community calls, and see puzzled faces when asked about Windows capabilities not yet supported on WinUI/WinAppSDK.
- userbinator 7mo ago
  apparently Microsoft new employees lack Windows experience, being raised in Chromebooks and Macs, apparently they aren't getting the trainings they should. They should be given Petzold's famous book on the subject, published by Microsoft Press itself.
  - pjmlp 7mo ago
    Yeah, certainly.
  - wolfi1 7mo ago
    considering that they have still Russinovich and Raymond Chen in their midst it shouldn't be too hard to have a two week boot camp for those who write programs for the OS
    - pjmlp 7mo ago
      Russinovich nowadays is busy with Azure, AI, and overseeing the Rust takeover at Azure, where 60% of the server load runs on Azure Linux. Even Dave Cutler seems having some Azure Linux fun, with repurposed XBox Cloud racks for AI research, as per his Dave Garage interview.

This is what I'm wondering. How dysfunctional is microsoft that they shipped a react-based start menu? It reads like satire, "Windows 11 is so bad that even microsoft doesn't use native controls".

userbinator 7mo ago
MS also made one of the most hated IM and audiovisual meeting applications with web tech, replacing a previously (not great but much better) native one: Teams.
- idiotsecant 7mo ago
  Teams was pretty bad when it released, but it's decent now I think.
  - mft_ 7mo ago
    It’s still randomly really slow (like, individual controls drawing one by one slow) on my recently-refreshed corporate laptop; and opening Teams was the last action before the entire Windows installation my personal laptop was nuked… but yes, it’s basically usable and reliable for video calls and team chat these days.
  - pjmlp 7mo ago
    Still no threading support.
drysart 7mo ago
It's not React. It's React Native. React Native and React are about as similar as JavaScript and Java. React Native is a way of orchestrating a UI comprised of native controls.
- flohofwoe 7mo ago
  It's still baffling, since the core idea of React only makes sense as a workaround for limitations of the browser DOM. Wrapping much more flexible 'native' widget frameworks with a React layer is pure cargo culting (same with SwiftUI).
  - mft_ 7mo ago
    It tried to solve cross-platform development. That’s a legitimate issue. In retrospect, calling it React probably caused more problems than it brought benefits, and makes little sense - like Java vs JavaScript.
    - myvoiceismypass 7mo ago
      But React Native looks like plain React. Syntax the same in both cases. Java and Javascript are wholly different languages.
- solid_fuel 7mo ago
  ok, granted, but microsoft already builds a first party way to orchestrate a UI comprised of native controls. Why do they invest so much effort into WinUI and C# if they're just going to use a 3rd party solution? Presumably the windows 11 start menu does not need to run on macOS or Linux.
  - pjmlp 7mo ago
    Because it uses C++, and C++/WinRT tooling for UI development isn't there. The team that killed C++/CX, said it isn't their problem that there aren't Visual Studio integrations like C++/CX, and eventually left C++/WinRT in maintenance and nowadays is responsible for windows-rs repo. Better not expect too much from that repo as well. Welcome to Microsoft politics.

Traubenfuchs 7mo ago

No one left who can use whatever half deprecated native actually-not-that-native windows ui framework is currently undead state of the art and not enough examples in the llm‘s to vibe code it. That leaves „web technologies“.

pjmlp 7mo ago

Plenty of stuff nowadays uses Webview2 across Windows. Not only has Project Reunion been a disaster (moving UWP regular Win32), apparently Microsoft new employees lack Windows experience, being raised in Chromebooks and Macs, apparently they aren't getting the trainings they should. You can go watch recordings of the community calls, and see puzzled faces when asked about Windows capabilities not yet supported on WinUI/WinAppSDK.

userbinator 7mo ago
apparently Microsoft new employees lack Windows experience, being raised in Chromebooks and Macs, apparently they aren't getting the trainings they should. They should be given Petzold's famous book on the subject, published by Microsoft Press itself.
- pjmlp 7mo ago
  Yeah, certainly.
- wolfi1 7mo ago
  considering that they have still Russinovich and Raymond Chen in their midst it shouldn't be too hard to have a two week boot camp for those who write programs for the OS
  - pjmlp 7mo ago
    Russinovich nowadays is busy with Azure, AI, and overseeing the Rust takeover at Azure, where 60% of the server load runs on Azure Linux. Even Dave Cutler seems having some Azure Linux fun, with repurposed XBox Cloud racks for AI research, as per his Dave Garage interview.