4 ms·

> Those big spikes you see in the center? They cost very little for the city to maintain, and generate oodles of tax money. May I introduce you to the budget f

by cyberax 8mo ago

> Those big spikes you see in the center? They cost very little for the city to maintain, and generate oodles of tax money. May I introduce you to the budget for the MTA that is larger than the GDP of several countries? Cities are _expensive_. Especially dense cities like NYC. > Those big, wide areas out towards the fringes? They generate next to no tax income and cost a lot to maintain. And this is the biggest lie. These suburbs? They generate most of the wealth in the US because the most affluent people live there. Buildings don't produce value, _people_ do.

mmooss 8mo ago
> Cities are _expensive_. Especially dense cities like NYC. But much cheaper per capita than everyone owning a car, an acre, traveling long distances for everything, and providing infrastructure etc. for all those people. MTA provides 6.5 million rides per day (!). Imagine that in daily car trips. https://www.mta.info/document/194491 https://www.mta.info/document/194491 The difference is that people need to put their money together and build shared resources like the subway, and then then some think it's more expensive because taxes and expenditures are higher. But you don't need a car, gas, insurance, etc.; the store is two blocks away; there is much more of everything. It works really well and people pay lots of extra money to live in much smaller spaces in cities.
- cyberax 8mo ago
  > But much cheaper per capita than everyone owning a car No, it's not. One ride on MTA costs around $20. The average US commute is 40 miles (both ways), so that $20 is actually more expensive than the IRS value for car depreciation. > MTA provides 6.5 million rides per day (!). Easily. Look at Houston, TX. Then compare the cost of real estate between Houston and NYC. I suggest to look at the average square footage of residences. Make sure you don't cry when you realize how much NYC is screwing with your perception. > But you don't need a car, gas, insurance, etc. Why are you assuming that subway is cheaper than a car?
  - mmooss 8mo ago
    > One ride on MTA costs around $20. ? The subway is $3 and the most expensive bus is I think $7.xx [0], and those are without bulk purchase (e.g., monthly passes) or discounts (seniors, etc.). Do you mean something like the Long Island Railroad? That goes out to the suburbs; it's not much part of NYC density. > The average US commute is 40 miles (both ways) Do you mean 80 mi total? The IRS milage depreciation number and is now 70 cents/mile [1] and doesn't include insurance. I'm not sure it includes overall depreciation of the car's value due to age (i.e., excluding milage?). 40 mi daily would be $28/day, 80 mi $56/day. > Easily. Look at Houston, TX. Then compare the cost of real estate between Houston and NYC. I suggest to look at the average square footage of residences. Square footage in NYC is smaller, of course, which has the side effect of density. Overall people far prefer NYC to Houston (based on supply and demand and prices). I'm not sure what your point is beyond that? Do you mean Houston has as many commuters as NYC? Obviously that's not true. LA might be an example of something approaching NYC scale without much public transit. [0] https://www.mta.info/fares-tolls https://www.mta.info/fares-tolls [1] https://tax.thomsonreuters.com/blog/calculating-vehicle-depreciation/#what-is-the-standard-mileage-rate https://tax.thomsonreuters.com/blog/calculating-vehicle-depr...
    - cyberax 8mo ago
      > The subway is $3 It's a lie. The true cost is around $20, and with capital expenses of new construction, it's closer to $30. Although pricing the capital construction cost is always tricky. You just don't see the true cost in the _ticket_ price, because productive citizens in suburbs are forced to subsidize inner-city transit through taxes. You can compute the true cost of a ride by trivially dividing the total yearly budget by the total number of trips. > Do you mean 80 mi total? No, 40 miles of total driving within a day. > Square footage in NYC is smaller, of course, which has the side effect of density. Overall people far prefer NYC to Houston No. People don't so much _choose_ as are forced to stay in NYC by economics mercilessly crushing them into dense shoebox-sized apartments.
      - kemotep 8mo ago
        Is it possible to calculate how much free at time of use roads are? How much of the tax bill goes towards that? If we are going to talk about how much the cost of public transportation such as trains or buses are covered by taxes it would only be fair to look at roads and personal vehicles too.

by cyberax 8mo ago

mmooss 8mo ago

> Cities are _expensive_. Especially dense cities like NYC. But much cheaper per capita than everyone owning a car, an acre, traveling long distances for everything, and providing infrastructure etc. for all those people. MTA provides 6.5 million rides per day (!). Imagine that in daily car trips. https://www.mta.info/document/194491 https://www.mta.info/document/194491 The difference is that people need to put their money together and build shared resources like the subway, and then then some think it's more expensive because taxes and expenditures are higher. But you don't need a car, gas, insurance, etc.; the store is two blocks away; there is much more of everything. It works really well and people pay lots of extra money to live in much smaller spaces in cities.

cyberax 8mo ago
> But much cheaper per capita than everyone owning a car No, it's not. One ride on MTA costs around $20. The average US commute is 40 miles (both ways), so that $20 is actually more expensive than the IRS value for car depreciation. > MTA provides 6.5 million rides per day (!). Easily. Look at Houston, TX. Then compare the cost of real estate between Houston and NYC. I suggest to look at the average square footage of residences. Make sure you don't cry when you realize how much NYC is screwing with your perception. > But you don't need a car, gas, insurance, etc. Why are you assuming that subway is cheaper than a car?
- mmooss 8mo ago
  > One ride on MTA costs around $20. ? The subway is $3 and the most expensive bus is I think $7.xx [0], and those are without bulk purchase (e.g., monthly passes) or discounts (seniors, etc.). Do you mean something like the Long Island Railroad? That goes out to the suburbs; it's not much part of NYC density. > The average US commute is 40 miles (both ways) Do you mean 80 mi total? The IRS milage depreciation number and is now 70 cents/mile [1] and doesn't include insurance. I'm not sure it includes overall depreciation of the car's value due to age (i.e., excluding milage?). 40 mi daily would be $28/day, 80 mi $56/day. > Easily. Look at Houston, TX. Then compare the cost of real estate between Houston and NYC. I suggest to look at the average square footage of residences. Square footage in NYC is smaller, of course, which has the side effect of density. Overall people far prefer NYC to Houston (based on supply and demand and prices). I'm not sure what your point is beyond that? Do you mean Houston has as many commuters as NYC? Obviously that's not true. LA might be an example of something approaching NYC scale without much public transit. [0] https://www.mta.info/fares-tolls https://www.mta.info/fares-tolls [1] https://tax.thomsonreuters.com/blog/calculating-vehicle-depreciation/#what-is-the-standard-mileage-rate https://tax.thomsonreuters.com/blog/calculating-vehicle-depr...
  - cyberax 8mo ago
    > The subway is $3 It's a lie. The true cost is around $20, and with capital expenses of new construction, it's closer to $30. Although pricing the capital construction cost is always tricky. You just don't see the true cost in the _ticket_ price, because productive citizens in suburbs are forced to subsidize inner-city transit through taxes. You can compute the true cost of a ride by trivially dividing the total yearly budget by the total number of trips. > Do you mean 80 mi total? No, 40 miles of total driving within a day. > Square footage in NYC is smaller, of course, which has the side effect of density. Overall people far prefer NYC to Houston No. People don't so much _choose_ as are forced to stay in NYC by economics mercilessly crushing them into dense shoebox-sized apartments.
    - kemotep 8mo ago
      Is it possible to calculate how much free at time of use roads are? How much of the tax bill goes towards that? If we are going to talk about how much the cost of public transportation such as trains or buses are covered by taxes it would only be fair to look at roads and personal vehicles too.