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> thinking they wish to pay taxes Wellll this is not always the case. I have moved from a shithole country to a nice one and oh boy I am crying in gratitude ev

> thinking they wish to pay taxes Wellll this is not always the case. I have moved from a shithole country to a nice one and oh boy I am crying in gratitude every month that I pay taxes. Because it is every day that I can see my money working for me in the environment. But your point stands.

Muromec 7mo ago
As a person who moved to a high-tax country I understand the sentiment. It's usually lost on the people who were always there paying those taxes. Somehow it often doesn't click that they get something in return. The same applies to all the audit and bureaucracy stuff. Does it do something? If you don't feel it does, does it mean it's not? I don't know really, but I hope somebody is rotating their key material as they provided in their security posture.
- egorfine 7mo ago
  > somebody is rotating their key material as they provided in their security posture no. Because actually rotating keys and passing audit for rotating keys are two different things and oftentimes those two are unrelated.
kakacik 7mo ago
There are well-used tax money, then there are stupidly burned tax money on ie buying favors of some part of population before elections, financing blindly without any checks social security programs that get abused to no end, or simply plain old corruption. I love bringing Switzerland up to annoy most of western/northern Europeans since their success is so obvious and undeniable while going in very different direction than most of Europe. Low to low-medium taxes, yet state budgets are frequently in positive numbers, there is no end to money spend on infra projects, train infra, but also rather strong social programs (just not ridiculously bad as mentioned above), top notch free healthcare and education. VAT taxes are 2-8% instead of 20-23% in all countries around. Country simply works(TM) because population is not hard comfort-zone-addicted and entitled bunch of spoiled whiny kids, they work relatively hard and it brings results, consistently and long term. They don't work more than americans nor asians, but thats enough for their prosperity. Do you think lets say a heavy tax burden in say Italy, or even France (not even going more into southern or eastern EU since that would be a small book) is really used well and efficiently? I visit those places frequently and it certainly doesn't seem that way. Random examples - Italy has garbage everywhere, people drive to highway stops to drop it there (so the wind blows it all around). Infrastructure seems like from 80s, with added age. From people dealing with bureaucracy there - its stuck in 19th century, direct approach will get you often nowhere. France - most communist state in western Europe, heck in all Europe, sans Belarus maybe. Yet if you talk to people, they are constantly pissed off at government, never happy with society or state they live in. I don't blame them, listening to French colleagues complain is often rather sad experience. Not something you read in travel guides, do you.
- KPGv2 7mo ago
  It doesn't hurt that Swiss immigration is very difficult to get through, and they have all that Holocaust money no Nazi or dead Jewish victim is ever going to come claim.
  - kakacik 7mo ago
    Lol was expecting such brilliant comment, didn't disappoint. A true sign of an educated peer, who knows Swiss history and current economics and understands well how much that money that was put into private banks contributed in last decades (cue - zero). But maga-level of discussions never fail to mention this, with zero facts to back that up. Immigration is tough, but managed way better than any EU country. Half of the world wants to come here, its a tiny place so it only makes sense they take only those who can find job in the country. Even though EU tried many times to strong arm them. I don't think people understand the concept of neutrality, its fine only if it suits them. They accepted both jewish and other refugees, and also germans. Even when completely surrounded by axis. Nazi leadership repeatedly claimed in their writing how Swiss confederacy is the biggest principal enemy of nazi 3rd reich and must be eliminated at all costs. (Some) Swiss understood the danger much better than rest of European countries who tried to appease hitler. Also Swiss helped allies way more than they tolerated nazis and gave them ie access to Campione d'Italia to organize fight against axis. For further reading please check this starting point [1] if you actually care to understand history [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henri_Guisan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henri_Guisan
- hermanzegerman 7mo ago
  Well let's see how good that Swiss Model would work as a big normal state, and not as a small tax haven, smaller than the State of Baden-Württemberg living off those surrounding states (siphoning up wealthy people, who got rich in those countries, and also their academics, that they didn't have to pay the education for)
  - kakacik 7mo ago
    Free Schengen movement that you germans fought so hard for. Its nice only if you siphon talent from the eastern part of EU and poorer parts of the world (where same brain drain logic and morality applies), but when people go to better places suddenly its an issue?

Muromec 7mo ago

As a person who moved to a high-tax country I understand the sentiment. It's usually lost on the people who were always there paying those taxes. Somehow it often doesn't click that they get something in return. The same applies to all the audit and bureaucracy stuff. Does it do something? If you don't feel it does, does it mean it's not? I don't know really, but I hope somebody is rotating their key material as they provided in their security posture.

egorfine 7mo ago
> somebody is rotating their key material as they provided in their security posture no. Because actually rotating keys and passing audit for rotating keys are two different things and oftentimes those two are unrelated.

kakacik 7mo ago

There are well-used tax money, then there are stupidly burned tax money on ie buying favors of some part of population before elections, financing blindly without any checks social security programs that get abused to no end, or simply plain old corruption. I love bringing Switzerland up to annoy most of western/northern Europeans since their success is so obvious and undeniable while going in very different direction than most of Europe. Low to low-medium taxes, yet state budgets are frequently in positive numbers, there is no end to money spend on infra projects, train infra, but also rather strong social programs (just not ridiculously bad as mentioned above), top notch free healthcare and education. VAT taxes are 2-8% instead of 20-23% in all countries around. Country simply works(TM) because population is not hard comfort-zone-addicted and entitled bunch of spoiled whiny kids, they work relatively hard and it brings results, consistently and long term. They don't work more than americans nor asians, but thats enough for their prosperity. Do you think lets say a heavy tax burden in say Italy, or even France (not even going more into southern or eastern EU since that would be a small book) is really used well and efficiently? I visit those places frequently and it certainly doesn't seem that way. Random examples - Italy has garbage everywhere, people drive to highway stops to drop it there (so the wind blows it all around). Infrastructure seems like from 80s, with added age. From people dealing with bureaucracy there - its stuck in 19th century, direct approach will get you often nowhere. France - most communist state in western Europe, heck in all Europe, sans Belarus maybe. Yet if you talk to people, they are constantly pissed off at government, never happy with society or state they live in. I don't blame them, listening to French colleagues complain is often rather sad experience. Not something you read in travel guides, do you.

KPGv2 7mo ago
It doesn't hurt that Swiss immigration is very difficult to get through, and they have all that Holocaust money no Nazi or dead Jewish victim is ever going to come claim.
- kakacik 7mo ago
  Lol was expecting such brilliant comment, didn't disappoint. A true sign of an educated peer, who knows Swiss history and current economics and understands well how much that money that was put into private banks contributed in last decades (cue - zero). But maga-level of discussions never fail to mention this, with zero facts to back that up. Immigration is tough, but managed way better than any EU country. Half of the world wants to come here, its a tiny place so it only makes sense they take only those who can find job in the country. Even though EU tried many times to strong arm them. I don't think people understand the concept of neutrality, its fine only if it suits them. They accepted both jewish and other refugees, and also germans. Even when completely surrounded by axis. Nazi leadership repeatedly claimed in their writing how Swiss confederacy is the biggest principal enemy of nazi 3rd reich and must be eliminated at all costs. (Some) Swiss understood the danger much better than rest of European countries who tried to appease hitler. Also Swiss helped allies way more than they tolerated nazis and gave them ie access to Campione d'Italia to organize fight against axis. For further reading please check this starting point [1] if you actually care to understand history [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henri_Guisan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henri_Guisan
hermanzegerman 7mo ago
Well let's see how good that Swiss Model would work as a big normal state, and not as a small tax haven, smaller than the State of Baden-Württemberg living off those surrounding states (siphoning up wealthy people, who got rich in those countries, and also their academics, that they didn't have to pay the education for)
- kakacik 7mo ago
  Free Schengen movement that you germans fought so hard for. Its nice only if you siphon talent from the eastern part of EU and poorer parts of the world (where same brain drain logic and morality applies), but when people go to better places suddenly its an issue?