4 ms·

Do you think Chinese LLMs acquired training data legitimately? I think the whole situation is a bit funny, but I don't think the US "started it" to be fair.

by hakunin 7mo ago

fooster 7mo ago
I mean as if anthropic and openai did.
geocar 7mo ago
> Do you think Chinese LLMs acquired training data legitimately? I think they probably acquire it in accordance with Chinese law. > but I don't think the US "started it" to be fair. Who are you quoting with those marks? Started what? To be fair to whom?
- hakunin 7mo ago
  > I think they probably acquire it in accordance with Chinese law. You can easily look up[1] how China struggles with effective enforcement of IP laws. And specifically for LLMs, Anthropic recently claimed that Chinese models trained on it without permission.[2] > Who are you quoting with those marks? Double quote marks have other uses besides direct quotes, such as signaling unusual usage.[3] In this case, talking about countries like they're squabbling kids. > Started what? Fishy use of others' IP, packaging others' work without attribution. > To be fair to whom? To US companies using Chinese LLMs without attribution. --- [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_intellectual_property_infringement_by_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_intellectual_pr... [2]: https://www.reuters.com/world/china/chinese-companies-used-claude-improve-own-models-anthropic-says-2026-02-23/ https://www.reuters.com/world/china/chinese-companies-used-c... [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quotation_marks_in_English#Signalling_unusual_usage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quotation_marks_in_English#Sig...
  - satvikpendem 7mo ago
    They said Chinese law, which is not the same as American law, and presumably using IP the way they have is legal there, if indeed they actually did, as allegations of IP theft are just that, allegations, and even if they weren't, all nations in the history of mankind have been "stealing" "intellectual property" since forever, including the US from Britain, literally with the good graces of the fledgling US government [0]. As to what Anthropic said, it's quite specious as this analysis shows [1], ie the amount of "exchanges" is only tantamount to a single day or two of promoting, not nearly enough to actually get good RL training data from. Regardless, it's not as if other American LLM companies obtained training data legitimately, whatever that means in today's world. [0] https://theworld.org/stories/2014/02/18/us-complains-other-nations-are-stealing-us-technology-america-has-history https://theworld.org/stories/2014/02/18/us-complains-other-n... [1] https://youtu.be/_k22WAEAfpE https://youtu.be/_k22WAEAfpE
    - hakunin 7mo ago
      The linked wikipedia article specifically talks about China struggling to enforce Chinese law. Here's a quote: > Despite making efforts in intellectual property protection in China, a major obstacle in prosecution is corruption in courts; local protectionism and political influence prohibits effective enforcement of intellectual property laws. To help overcome local corruption, China established specialized IP courts and sharply increased financial penalties. > all nations in the history of mankind have been "stealing" "intellectual property" since forever You can't use 100-400 years ago as the counterexample to what happens today. It's like justifying Russian invasion of Ukraine with colonists invading Native American territories. We're in a different world order, things that were normalized that far back shouldn't be normalized today.
      - satvikpendem 7mo ago
        They are struggling to enforce domestic IP law because it directly affects their own businesses, they don't care about international IP law. Human nature is the same in any time period, there is no "normalization" at all, it's just how humans have always and will always continue to act, even today, with the world order currently breaking down.
  - geocar 7mo ago
    > You can easily look up[1] how China struggles with effective enforcement of IP laws. I didn't see anything in there about Chinese companies violating Chinese law. Can you so easily look up how American companies struggle with effective enforcement of Chinese IP laws? I think it should be pretty easy to see how American companies struggle with effective enforcement of European IP laws, and I can tell you it is similar. From here, it is not so clear that the US can even enforce its own laws at the moment. > signaling unusual usage Thank you! > In this case, talking about countries like they're squabbling kids. > > Started what? > Fishy use of others' IP, packaging others' work without attribution. I see. I guess if China is 3000 years old then maybe obviously, because the US is such a young country by comparison. So you think it is "fair"[1] to violate Chinese Law because there were people in China who violated US law first? If so, I think that is pretty childish. [1]: I am trying it out!
    - hakunin 7mo ago
      > So you think it is "fair" […] Maybe fair in a tit-for-tat sort of way, but not okay. That's why I called the whole situation funny. The rest of your post is answered in the sibling comment.
  - ywvcbk 7mo ago
    > claimed that Chinese models trained on it without permission That's extremely rich coming from Anthropic, though? Well they would know all about it of course...
    - hakunin 7mo ago
      > That's extremely rich coming from Anthropic And funny.
deleted 6mo ago
[deleted]

Do you think Chinese LLMs acquired training data legitimately? I think the whole situation is a bit funny, but I don't think the US "started it" to be fair.

by hakunin 7mo ago

Do you think Chinese LLMs acquired training data legitimately? I think the whole situation is a bit funny, but I don't think the US "started it" to be fair.

fooster 7mo ago

I mean as if anthropic and openai did.

geocar 7mo ago

> Do you think Chinese LLMs acquired training data legitimately? I think they probably acquire it in accordance with Chinese law. > but I don't think the US "started it" to be fair. Who are you quoting with those marks? Started what? To be fair to whom?

hakunin 7mo ago
> I think they probably acquire it in accordance with Chinese law. You can easily look up[1] how China struggles with effective enforcement of IP laws. And specifically for LLMs, Anthropic recently claimed that Chinese models trained on it without permission.[2] > Who are you quoting with those marks? Double quote marks have other uses besides direct quotes, such as signaling unusual usage.[3] In this case, talking about countries like they're squabbling kids. > Started what? Fishy use of others' IP, packaging others' work without attribution. > To be fair to whom? To US companies using Chinese LLMs without attribution. --- [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_intellectual_property_infringement_by_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_intellectual_pr... [2]: https://www.reuters.com/world/china/chinese-companies-used-claude-improve-own-models-anthropic-says-2026-02-23/ https://www.reuters.com/world/china/chinese-companies-used-c... [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quotation_marks_in_English#Signalling_unusual_usage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quotation_marks_in_English#Sig...
- satvikpendem 7mo ago
  They said Chinese law, which is not the same as American law, and presumably using IP the way they have is legal there, if indeed they actually did, as allegations of IP theft are just that, allegations, and even if they weren't, all nations in the history of mankind have been "stealing" "intellectual property" since forever, including the US from Britain, literally with the good graces of the fledgling US government [0]. As to what Anthropic said, it's quite specious as this analysis shows [1], ie the amount of "exchanges" is only tantamount to a single day or two of promoting, not nearly enough to actually get good RL training data from. Regardless, it's not as if other American LLM companies obtained training data legitimately, whatever that means in today's world. [0] https://theworld.org/stories/2014/02/18/us-complains-other-nations-are-stealing-us-technology-america-has-history https://theworld.org/stories/2014/02/18/us-complains-other-n... [1] https://youtu.be/_k22WAEAfpE https://youtu.be/_k22WAEAfpE
  - hakunin 7mo ago
    The linked wikipedia article specifically talks about China struggling to enforce Chinese law. Here's a quote: > Despite making efforts in intellectual property protection in China, a major obstacle in prosecution is corruption in courts; local protectionism and political influence prohibits effective enforcement of intellectual property laws. To help overcome local corruption, China established specialized IP courts and sharply increased financial penalties. > all nations in the history of mankind have been "stealing" "intellectual property" since forever You can't use 100-400 years ago as the counterexample to what happens today. It's like justifying Russian invasion of Ukraine with colonists invading Native American territories. We're in a different world order, things that were normalized that far back shouldn't be normalized today.
    - satvikpendem 7mo ago
      They are struggling to enforce domestic IP law because it directly affects their own businesses, they don't care about international IP law. Human nature is the same in any time period, there is no "normalization" at all, it's just how humans have always and will always continue to act, even today, with the world order currently breaking down.
- geocar 7mo ago
  > You can easily look up[1] how China struggles with effective enforcement of IP laws. I didn't see anything in there about Chinese companies violating Chinese law. Can you so easily look up how American companies struggle with effective enforcement of Chinese IP laws? I think it should be pretty easy to see how American companies struggle with effective enforcement of European IP laws, and I can tell you it is similar. From here, it is not so clear that the US can even enforce its own laws at the moment. > signaling unusual usage Thank you! > In this case, talking about countries like they're squabbling kids. > > Started what? > Fishy use of others' IP, packaging others' work without attribution. I see. I guess if China is 3000 years old then maybe obviously, because the US is such a young country by comparison. So you think it is "fair"[1] to violate Chinese Law because there were people in China who violated US law first? If so, I think that is pretty childish. [1]: I am trying it out!
  - hakunin 7mo ago
    > So you think it is "fair" […] Maybe fair in a tit-for-tat sort of way, but not okay. That's why I called the whole situation funny. The rest of your post is answered in the sibling comment.
- ywvcbk 7mo ago
  > claimed that Chinese models trained on it without permission That's extremely rich coming from Anthropic, though? Well they would know all about it of course...
  - hakunin 7mo ago
    > That's extremely rich coming from Anthropic And funny.

deleted 6mo ago

[deleted]