4 ms·

JavaScript can be fast too, it's just the ecosystem and decisions devs make that slow it down. Same for Java, I have yet to in my entire career see enterprise

JavaScript can be fast too, it's just the ecosystem and decisions devs make that slow it down. Same for Java, I have yet to in my entire career see enterprise Java be performant and not memory intensive. At the end of the day, if you care about performance at the app layer, you will use a language better suited to that.

j-vogel 7mo ago
Fair point on ecosystem decisions, that's basically the thesis of the post. These patterns aren't Java being slow, they're developers (myself included) writing code that looks fine but works against the JVM. Enterprise Java gets a bad rap partly because these patterns compound silently across large codebases and nobody profiles until something breaks.
maccard 7mo ago
My experience with the defaults in JavaScript is that they’re pretty slow. It’s really, really easy to hit the limits of an express app and for those limits to be in your app code. I’ve worked on JVM backed apps and they’re memory hungry (well, they require a reallocation for the JVM) and they’re slow to boot but once they’re going they are absolutely ripping fast and your far more likely to be bottlenecked by your DB long before you need to start doing any horizontal scaling.
- wiradikusuma 7mo ago
  Compile it to native (GraalVM) and you can get it fast while consuming less memory. But now your build is slow :)
  - maccard 7mo ago
    The minute a project has maven in it the build is slow. Don’t even get me started on Gradle…
FatherOfCurses 7mo ago
"Enterprise Java" Factories! Factories everywhere!
- wood_spirit 7mo ago
  Yes! Obligatory link to the seminal work on the subject: https://gwern.net/doc/cs/2005-09-30-smith-whyihateframeworks.html https://gwern.net/doc/cs/2005-09-30-smith-whyihateframeworks...
- whattheheckheck 7mo ago
  Why do you think this plays out over and over again? What's the causal mechanisms of this strange attractor
pron 7mo ago
Well, JS is fast and Go is faster, but Java is C++-fast.
- Mawr 7mo ago
  What a ridiculous claim. You're either deluded or outright lying.
  - pron 7mo ago
    No, just a 20+ year C++ and Java developer, while you clearly haven't used modern Java. Now, I admit that because I have a lot of experience in low-level programming, I am often able to beat Java's performance in C++, but not without a lot of effort. I can do better in Zig when arenas fit, but I wouldn't use it (or C++ for that matter) for a huge program that needs to be maintained by a large team over many years.

j-vogel 7mo ago

Fair point on ecosystem decisions, that's basically the thesis of the post. These patterns aren't Java being slow, they're developers (myself included) writing code that looks fine but works against the JVM. Enterprise Java gets a bad rap partly because these patterns compound silently across large codebases and nobody profiles until something breaks.

maccard 7mo ago

My experience with the defaults in JavaScript is that they’re pretty slow. It’s really, really easy to hit the limits of an express app and for those limits to be in your app code. I’ve worked on JVM backed apps and they’re memory hungry (well, they require a reallocation for the JVM) and they’re slow to boot but once they’re going they are absolutely ripping fast and your far more likely to be bottlenecked by your DB long before you need to start doing any horizontal scaling.

wiradikusuma 7mo ago
Compile it to native (GraalVM) and you can get it fast while consuming less memory. But now your build is slow :)
- maccard 7mo ago
  The minute a project has maven in it the build is slow. Don’t even get me started on Gradle…

FatherOfCurses 7mo ago

"Enterprise Java" Factories! Factories everywhere!

wood_spirit 7mo ago
Yes! Obligatory link to the seminal work on the subject: https://gwern.net/doc/cs/2005-09-30-smith-whyihateframeworks.html https://gwern.net/doc/cs/2005-09-30-smith-whyihateframeworks...
whattheheckheck 7mo ago
Why do you think this plays out over and over again? What's the causal mechanisms of this strange attractor

pron 7mo ago

Well, JS is fast and Go is faster, but Java is C++-fast.

Mawr 7mo ago
What a ridiculous claim. You're either deluded or outright lying.
- pron 7mo ago
  No, just a 20+ year C++ and Java developer, while you clearly haven't used modern Java. Now, I admit that because I have a lot of experience in low-level programming, I am often able to beat Java's performance in C++, but not without a lot of effort. I can do better in Zig when arenas fit, but I wouldn't use it (or C++ for that matter) for a huge program that needs to be maintained by a large team over many years.