3 ms·

I don't know what is so mysterious about the following: People can't just leave Wednesday and be in a new job with the same or better pay next Monday. Rent/mo

I don't know what is so mysterious about the following: People can't just leave Wednesday and be in a new job with the same or better pay next Monday. Rent/mortgage, bills and food are still due. Comments like yours always baffle me. Empty idealism. For the record, I usually get called to clean up and make things good again as well. Most of my career was like that.

dns_snek 7mo ago
> People can't just leave Wednesday and be in a new job with the same or better pay next Monday. They don't have to leave, they can refuse to comply with unreasonable requests which are likely to cause harm by jeopardizing the security of user data. Maybe your position is too precarious to risk getting fired, but if your job is asking you to do something unethical then you should be doing everything you can to get yourself out of that situation, either by supporting unionization or by being willing to take a manageable pay cut to find a new job as soon as possible. If you're a software developer then you can almost certainly afford at least a moderate pay cut for upholding ethical conduct. The vast majority can even if we don't want to, but these situations are where we find out if our ethics are for sale or not.
- pdimitar 7mo ago
  A fairly filter-bubble take. > Maybe your position is too precarious to risk getting fired You mean yours isn't? Or even that of at least 95% of all devs worldwide? I can definitely say "no" to my CEO if he wants something too big that would take too much time and energy for questionable business results -- I am even expected to ground him. But if my colleagues hand me a ticket, I cannot just refuse without repercussions. I'll not get fired on the spot, that much is certain. But if it happens 2-3 times they'll start looking for a replacement. Same will happen if I outright tell my CEO I can't do something due to ethical concerns. That's how it is almost everywhere I looked and asked (and have very rarely worked with US companies). > If you're a software developer then you can almost certainly afford at least a moderate pay cut I can't even afford a 10% pay cut. I want to live in your world.
  - salawat 7mo ago
    The thing you two are missing is "solidarity" and our industry sucks at it. In fact, it's been relied upon and conditioned into most IT/tech types we're "special" somehow in a way blue collar workers aren't. We aren't and the same dynamics apply. If everyone stops asking the boss how high to jump, and refuses to jump, only then will you see a meaningful reining in of behavior in executives. That action potential has to start somewhere, and as the current generation of alleged adults in the room, we're it. Our juniors need an example set or the cycle repeats. It isn't empty idealism. It's hard effing pragmatism at it's most brutal. If we don't change, nothing can change. Therefore, we must change.
    - pdimitar 7mo ago
      Yes I am missing it, as in, I know it's theoretically possible but I've never once seen it. It seems to be a fantasy. > It isn't empty idealism. It is if it's never happening. Pragmatism it would be if it was already an established practice. I like my dragons purple btw. > If we don't change, nothing can change. Therefore, we must change. Obviously. But that "if" is trying to lift an impossible amount of weight is what I am saying. It's one of those powerless "oh, if only!" cries that we the people are prone to.
      - salawat 7mo ago
        You think execs don't know that? You think politicians don't know that? You know, there's a reason why in primary education we covered the Gilded Age, the Robber Barons, The Labor Movement, all that jazz. "We the People" aren't passive. When we get poked hard enough, often enough to be roused, it scares the bajeezus out of anyone trying to "drive" or "manage" the system. You ever been hushed by a higher up in a company for talking about compensation? Did you point to the sign required by law as a reminder you have Rights? When times get like this, you have to dredge up the things you've put away because everything was going so good. Now, it isn't, and your neck is on the block. You will die. You will be offered up for slaughter at the first inconvenience. This is unavoidable. The calculus of business is not something that the ones executing business are going to change voluntarily. They have to be forced to change by the environment. You are the agent that makes up the environment. So your choice is, walk into the inevitable like livestock to the slaughter, or work with your fellow man and take a few chunks of the machine with you. The first step to collective action is accepting you might not ever get to see the shade of the tree you're planting. Once you accept that; the course is clear. It's not empty ideals anymore. It's action. Your action, because you matter, everyone else matters, and it's the right thing to do, and if what's going on is someone else's idea of right, you ain't selling everyone else into it, because that, (what's going on) is wrong. Ever heard of a Judas goat? Same thing. Herd follows it calmly. Manager's and execs are 100% aware of the dynamic and on guard. The only counterbalance against the dismissal reflex is making it too costly to dismiss all the individual actors at once. We're in the machine. The machine is us. If we don't like how it works... Time for change. I got a lot of days left, and I don't intend to leave the world working like it is, because it is not working for the vast majority of us. So in conclusion, do what you want. I'm not here to convince someone who doesn't want to be convinced. But I see a fairer, more equitable world where we aren't subjugated by wannabe despots at the top of corporate hierarchies, but partners in making, delivering, and consuming goods and services, to the mutual benefit of all. Not just a lucky few. We were there once, and we can be there again; but we have to accept the way isn't making it possible for a privileged few to set the terms of exchange unilaterally. There has to be good faith. In the abcense there of, there will be conflict. They want things to just work and make them money. We want to eat, and be able to live reasonably well on a living wage without having to lock horns with and wrestle for every damn crumb against a capital wielding class more interested in extraction than being benefactors and stewards of a meta-stable system that serves everybody.

dns_snek 7mo ago

> People can't just leave Wednesday and be in a new job with the same or better pay next Monday. They don't have to leave, they can refuse to comply with unreasonable requests which are likely to cause harm by jeopardizing the security of user data. Maybe your position is too precarious to risk getting fired, but if your job is asking you to do something unethical then you should be doing everything you can to get yourself out of that situation, either by supporting unionization or by being willing to take a manageable pay cut to find a new job as soon as possible. If you're a software developer then you can almost certainly afford at least a moderate pay cut for upholding ethical conduct. The vast majority can even if we don't want to, but these situations are where we find out if our ethics are for sale or not.

pdimitar 7mo ago
A fairly filter-bubble take. > Maybe your position is too precarious to risk getting fired You mean yours isn't? Or even that of at least 95% of all devs worldwide? I can definitely say "no" to my CEO if he wants something too big that would take too much time and energy for questionable business results -- I am even expected to ground him. But if my colleagues hand me a ticket, I cannot just refuse without repercussions. I'll not get fired on the spot, that much is certain. But if it happens 2-3 times they'll start looking for a replacement. Same will happen if I outright tell my CEO I can't do something due to ethical concerns. That's how it is almost everywhere I looked and asked (and have very rarely worked with US companies). > If you're a software developer then you can almost certainly afford at least a moderate pay cut I can't even afford a 10% pay cut. I want to live in your world.
- salawat 7mo ago
  The thing you two are missing is "solidarity" and our industry sucks at it. In fact, it's been relied upon and conditioned into most IT/tech types we're "special" somehow in a way blue collar workers aren't. We aren't and the same dynamics apply. If everyone stops asking the boss how high to jump, and refuses to jump, only then will you see a meaningful reining in of behavior in executives. That action potential has to start somewhere, and as the current generation of alleged adults in the room, we're it. Our juniors need an example set or the cycle repeats. It isn't empty idealism. It's hard effing pragmatism at it's most brutal. If we don't change, nothing can change. Therefore, we must change.
  - pdimitar 7mo ago
    Yes I am missing it, as in, I know it's theoretically possible but I've never once seen it. It seems to be a fantasy. > It isn't empty idealism. It is if it's never happening. Pragmatism it would be if it was already an established practice. I like my dragons purple btw. > If we don't change, nothing can change. Therefore, we must change. Obviously. But that "if" is trying to lift an impossible amount of weight is what I am saying. It's one of those powerless "oh, if only!" cries that we the people are prone to.
    - salawat 7mo ago
      You think execs don't know that? You think politicians don't know that? You know, there's a reason why in primary education we covered the Gilded Age, the Robber Barons, The Labor Movement, all that jazz. "We the People" aren't passive. When we get poked hard enough, often enough to be roused, it scares the bajeezus out of anyone trying to "drive" or "manage" the system. You ever been hushed by a higher up in a company for talking about compensation? Did you point to the sign required by law as a reminder you have Rights? When times get like this, you have to dredge up the things you've put away because everything was going so good. Now, it isn't, and your neck is on the block. You will die. You will be offered up for slaughter at the first inconvenience. This is unavoidable. The calculus of business is not something that the ones executing business are going to change voluntarily. They have to be forced to change by the environment. You are the agent that makes up the environment. So your choice is, walk into the inevitable like livestock to the slaughter, or work with your fellow man and take a few chunks of the machine with you. The first step to collective action is accepting you might not ever get to see the shade of the tree you're planting. Once you accept that; the course is clear. It's not empty ideals anymore. It's action. Your action, because you matter, everyone else matters, and it's the right thing to do, and if what's going on is someone else's idea of right, you ain't selling everyone else into it, because that, (what's going on) is wrong. Ever heard of a Judas goat? Same thing. Herd follows it calmly. Manager's and execs are 100% aware of the dynamic and on guard. The only counterbalance against the dismissal reflex is making it too costly to dismiss all the individual actors at once. We're in the machine. The machine is us. If we don't like how it works... Time for change. I got a lot of days left, and I don't intend to leave the world working like it is, because it is not working for the vast majority of us. So in conclusion, do what you want. I'm not here to convince someone who doesn't want to be convinced. But I see a fairer, more equitable world where we aren't subjugated by wannabe despots at the top of corporate hierarchies, but partners in making, delivering, and consuming goods and services, to the mutual benefit of all. Not just a lucky few. We were there once, and we can be there again; but we have to accept the way isn't making it possible for a privileged few to set the terms of exchange unilaterally. There has to be good faith. In the abcense there of, there will be conflict. They want things to just work and make them money. We want to eat, and be able to live reasonably well on a living wage without having to lock horns with and wrestle for every damn crumb against a capital wielding class more interested in extraction than being benefactors and stewards of a meta-stable system that serves everybody.