4 ms·

I thought TOS grants Anthropic the right to stop providing the service to a user, not go after them legally.

by cedws 7mo ago

snoman 7mo ago
My understanding is that, if you directly assist someone violate a ToS, you can be held liable. Bad analogy but the getaway driver doesn’t need to enter the bank to be guilty in the robbery.
- nananana9 7mo ago
  Surely there's no way that's true. The logical conclusion of that would be that every random ToS is a law that everyone must abide by, regardless of whether or not they've agreed to it.
  - ethanrutherford 7mo ago
    By definition, it is exactly a law. It's known as business law. The ToS is a business contract which you must agree to if you wish to use the service. Violating terms of service is literally a breach of contract.
    - vova_hn2 7mo ago
      How can you breach a contract if you are not a party to a contract? OpenCode is not using any Anthropic services, they are just publishing some source code that seems (obligatory IANAL) to be protected speech under the First Amendment [0], if this legal argument is happening in American jurisdiction. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_as_speech https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_as_speech
      - gitaarik 7mo ago
        Interesting point. I've been looking into a similar issue recently, and for example LinkedIn won a lawsuit against the analytics company hiQ because they violated their ToS for scraping their website. And I think they also never technically had a direct contract they'd breach. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HiQ_Labs_v._LinkedIn https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HiQ_Labs_v._LinkedIn
        vova_hn2 7mo ago
        Yes, but I think that there is a big difference. In the case you linked, hiQ were actually doing the scraping themselves. People (or company? not sure) don't make any requests to Anthropic themselves. They just publish code that can make such requests. I don't think that there is a legal precedent that would make publishing code that can do scraping illegal.
        gitaarik 7mo ago
        Yeah good point. I think if the scraping code is written specifically for a site / system that prohibits scraping through it's ToS, the company has an edge for a lawsuit. It's a bit of a gray area I think. It depends how much of a threat you form to the company you're scraping, and how big the company is.
anonym29 7mo ago
I think you may be confused here. Anthropic isn't going after users here at all, they essentially told another company that is interfacing with Anthropic's service in a way that violates Anthropic's TOS to "please stop or else we might have to take legal action in the future". More broadly, you do not need to establish any kind of contractual right to "go after" anyone legally, that's not how civil law works. A cease and desist letter isn't even really legal action, it's a threat of legal action, but even then, Anthropic doesn't need your permission to sue you, just like you don't need Anthropic's permission to sue them. If you think that inside the U.S., you have some kind of legal immunity to or protection from cease and desist letters or lawsuits from any company, for any reason¹, you would largely be mistaken. If this is important to you, you might want to talk to a lawyer. ¹ Some states have anti-SLAPP statutes that offer limited protections in certain context, but this isn't applicable in the context of this example between Anthropic and AnomalyCo.
- xkcd-sucks 7mo ago
  That being said it's maybe a valid claim under "tortuous interference" theory, i.e. OpenCode damaged Anthropic by interfering with the contractual ToS agreement between Anthropic and its users https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tortious_interference https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tortious_interference

I thought TOS grants Anthropic the right to stop providing the service to a user, not go after them legally.

by cedws 7mo ago

I thought TOS grants Anthropic the right to stop providing the service to a user, not go after them legally.

My understanding is that, if you directly assist someone violate a ToS, you can be held liable. Bad analogy but the getaway driver doesn’t need to enter the bank to be guilty in the robbery.

nananana9 7mo ago
Surely there's no way that's true. The logical conclusion of that would be that every random ToS is a law that everyone must abide by, regardless of whether or not they've agreed to it.
- ethanrutherford 7mo ago
  By definition, it is exactly a law. It's known as business law. The ToS is a business contract which you must agree to if you wish to use the service. Violating terms of service is literally a breach of contract.
  - vova_hn2 7mo ago
    How can you breach a contract if you are not a party to a contract? OpenCode is not using any Anthropic services, they are just publishing some source code that seems (obligatory IANAL) to be protected speech under the First Amendment [0], if this legal argument is happening in American jurisdiction. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_as_speech https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_as_speech
    - gitaarik 7mo ago
      Interesting point. I've been looking into a similar issue recently, and for example LinkedIn won a lawsuit against the analytics company hiQ because they violated their ToS for scraping their website. And I think they also never technically had a direct contract they'd breach. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HiQ_Labs_v._LinkedIn https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HiQ_Labs_v._LinkedIn
      - vova_hn2 7mo ago
        Yes, but I think that there is a big difference. In the case you linked, hiQ were actually doing the scraping themselves. People (or company? not sure) don't make any requests to Anthropic themselves. They just publish code that can make such requests. I don't think that there is a legal precedent that would make publishing code that can do scraping illegal.
        gitaarik 7mo ago
        Yeah good point. I think if the scraping code is written specifically for a site / system that prohibits scraping through it's ToS, the company has an edge for a lawsuit. It's a bit of a gray area I think. It depends how much of a threat you form to the company you're scraping, and how big the company is.

anonym29 7mo ago

I think you may be confused here. Anthropic isn't going after users here at all, they essentially told another company that is interfacing with Anthropic's service in a way that violates Anthropic's TOS to "please stop or else we might have to take legal action in the future". More broadly, you do not need to establish any kind of contractual right to "go after" anyone legally, that's not how civil law works. A cease and desist letter isn't even really legal action, it's a threat of legal action, but even then, Anthropic doesn't need your permission to sue you, just like you don't need Anthropic's permission to sue them. If you think that inside the U.S., you have some kind of legal immunity to or protection from cease and desist letters or lawsuits from any company, for any reason¹, you would largely be mistaken. If this is important to you, you might want to talk to a lawyer. ¹ Some states have anti-SLAPP statutes that offer limited protections in certain context, but this isn't applicable in the context of this example between Anthropic and AnomalyCo.

xkcd-sucks 7mo ago
That being said it's maybe a valid claim under "tortuous interference" theory, i.e. OpenCode damaged Anthropic by interfering with the contractual ToS agreement between Anthropic and its users https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tortious_interference https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tortious_interference