4 ms·

Open internet is dead only to those that don't take the effort to discover. Otherwise it's still as open as it always was. Since there was an internet to speak

by lstodd 7mo ago

Open internet is dead only to those that don't take the effort to discover. Otherwise it's still as open as it always was. Since there was an internet to speak of, there always were and still are vast amounts of people unaware of stuff that exists, limited by no "platforms" but only by their own lack of desire.

throwaway0q5347 7mo ago
> limited by no "platforms" but only by their own lack of desire. Or Google's low ranking of their content
- lstodd 7mo ago
  I don't even. Relying on third-party ranking of whatever is a clear indicator of lack of effort.
  - StableAlkyne 7mo ago
    Short of developing psychic abilities, how would you then address the discoverability problem without relying on a third party? Forums, search engines, social media, and link aggregators are all third parties with their own ranking. Nobody outside of a handful of small-web hobbyists have put a "cool links" section into a website since 1997.
    - skydhash 7mo ago
      There’s always a relationship aspect in discoverability. Unless the set is small, there will always be intermediary nodes in that graph that will connect consumers and producers. But there’s no need for it to be a mega tech company. Radio DJs help with discovering musics. Books club can help with recommending books.
      - johnnyanmac 7mo ago
        Doesn't need to be, but most traffic is driven by search. I reckon 2nd most common is influencers, and I don't know if that's an upgrade (even easier to buy out).
    - BowBun 7mo ago
      This is classic engineering missing the forest for the trees. The answer to your question is: same as we always did before! Do you talk to friends? Colleagues? Family? You definitely chat with us here on HN. All of these people share things with you constantly. There's a funny obsession in tech circles to gather all the information they can as quick as possible. I much prefer to optimize for the quality of information I'm ingesting.
      - thaumasiotes 7mo ago
        > The answer to your question is: same as we always did before! Do you talk to friends? Colleagues? Family? You definitely chat with us here on HN. All of these people share things with you constantly. So, in your opinion, we can cut out the reliance on third parties by relying on third parties?
repeekad 7mo ago
Technology Connections referred to this as “algorithmic complacency”, young people don’t like Bluesky because they have to decide for themselves what content to follow instead of a default algorithm feed
nazgulsenpai 7mo ago
I use a similar argument to those who say that gaming is dead. Sure, if you're waiting for $AAA_DEVELOPER to change, it's probably dead, but you don't even have to look that far to find amazing games everywhere in indie and AA.
- johnnyanmac 7mo ago
  Gaming feels dead to devs these days. But I know that's not what gamers care about.
- polothesecond 7mo ago
  Sadly indie developers are only just starting get into my preferred genre. I am excited to see how a number of upcoming titles turn out, but for the time I’m stuck waiting for $AAA_DEVELOPER to change. I’ve had half the mind to just try my own hand at game dev again.
dryarzeg 7mo ago
That is true to some extent. However, let me ask you one simple question: how would you try to search for something if you are not aware of it's existence? In other words, how people that are not aware of existence of open-source projects (such as OpenTTD) are supposed to discover them if they're not searching for them on purpose (which is impossible given that they have no clue about their existence)? Of course there will be some ways like social media or something else. But that question is what seems to worry many people in our case, in my humble opinion. Remember that most of the planet's population is not even aware of existence of open-source projects and open-source concept itself. So how are they supposed to discover it if they don't know about it? When it's present on platforms like Steam and GOG, it helps to spread the word, but when it's not... Well, I guess that seems to be a problem for some people.
- zer00eyz 7mo ago
  > In other words, how people that are not aware of existence of open-source projects (such as OpenTTD) are supposed to discover them if they're not searching for them on purpose (which is impossible given that they have no clue about their existence)? This question tickles me. In the before time, something would be so good you were compelled to tell someone about it. Sriracha, Costco are brands you likely know that dont advertise, and somehow got popular. In the 90's there were bands that were massively popular with little to no air play, and less promotion (Fugazi is a great example).
  - starkparker 7mo ago
    probably a little telling that you don't seem to know the name of the sriracha brand you're referring to that does zero-dollar advertising
    - whstl 7mo ago
      Does it matter? People just look for the bottle with a rooster anyway.
      - 7mo ago
itsdesmond 7mo ago
This is as good an argument as saying that Americans with unhealthy diets bear sole responsibility, ignoring the massive corporate efforts to convince them of the healthfulness of highly processed foods. While, obviously, individuals have ultimate responsibility for their actions, ignoring the concerted efforts to influence those actions through psychology, marketing/ads, paid “experts”, paid influencers and celebrities, lobbies, blah blah et cetera. When I started using the internet, if I asked someone what the internet was I was unlikely to get any answer at all. It was new. I had to define it for myself. Ask a 6 year old what the internet is. It’s YouTube. TikTok. Roblox. Experiences that are designed to keep them there. It is obviously more difficult for an individual to engage with the open web than it ever has been (for those with access at all).
- skydhash 7mo ago
  > It is obviously more difficult for an individual to engage with the open web than it ever has been (for those with access at all). It’s very easy. If you’re a producer, you maintain a separate presence outside the walled platforms. If you’re a consumer, you look outside the walled platform for content.
  - itsdesmond 7mo ago
    Hey maybe I’m wrong, overthinking it. Maybe the problem is that simple. Maybe you can only see things simply. There’s simply no way to tell.
  - johnnyanmac 7mo ago
    >It’s very easy. If you’re a producer, you maintain a separate presence outside the walled platforms. I want to try one day. Steam's pricing parity adds friction to that, though. I can't reward people for venturing to a place where they own their software, and that seems to be the only real way to move many.
- Barrin92 7mo ago
  >ignoring the concerted efforts to influence those actions Ignorance isn't the point. The issue is that it's your responsibility to stop them. the buck always stops at "I". Are they just going to stop themselves? Is your neighbor going to stop them for you? If so, why should she if you don't? As Kant said, enlightenment is getting out of your self inflicted tutelage. When is it self inflicted? When you have the reason but lack the courage to act without direction from someone else. Yes, there's influencers and lobbies but the solutions are still one search away. Even Google doesn't hide the alternatives from you. And sure we can force feed every American veggies and force install linux on their computers but that'd defeat the point.
jl6 7mo ago
The open internet is a whisper in a screaming crowd. Yes, it’s technically still there.
Rapzid 7mo ago
I played quite a bit of OpenTTD a year or so ago and I'm pretty sure I downloaded it straight from their site.
toyg 7mo ago
Although I agree on the general point, it's technically not true that the internet is "still at open as it always was". Nation states are increasingly putting up barriers and filters, and (pushed by commercial interests) forcing people to identify themselves.
- lstodd 7mo ago
  All things considered it's still much easier to get to the open internet through those laughable barriers than in say 1995 over 14400 modem tied to a landline of quite horrible quality. And I actually worked at dialup ISP in 1996-1998. Push to identify is tied to platforms again, which aren't quite what I'd consider open. Filters are meh, minimal technical competence, much less than was required in 1990s and you get through no problem. Until the moment the government idiots panic and cut off connectivity entirely it's fine. And if it came to that, you'd better be fleeing the country because the next steps are death squads knocking at your door and cruise missiles/drones raining. Many people here are very worried about discoverability. I find this baffling tbh. It's as if "internet" is the top 10 google results and no more.

by lstodd 7mo ago

throwaway0q5347 7mo ago

> limited by no "platforms" but only by their own lack of desire. Or Google's low ranking of their content

lstodd 7mo ago
I don't even. Relying on third-party ranking of whatever is a clear indicator of lack of effort.
- StableAlkyne 7mo ago
  Short of developing psychic abilities, how would you then address the discoverability problem without relying on a third party? Forums, search engines, social media, and link aggregators are all third parties with their own ranking. Nobody outside of a handful of small-web hobbyists have put a "cool links" section into a website since 1997.
  - skydhash 7mo ago
    There’s always a relationship aspect in discoverability. Unless the set is small, there will always be intermediary nodes in that graph that will connect consumers and producers. But there’s no need for it to be a mega tech company. Radio DJs help with discovering musics. Books club can help with recommending books.
    - johnnyanmac 7mo ago
      Doesn't need to be, but most traffic is driven by search. I reckon 2nd most common is influencers, and I don't know if that's an upgrade (even easier to buy out).
  - BowBun 7mo ago
    This is classic engineering missing the forest for the trees. The answer to your question is: same as we always did before! Do you talk to friends? Colleagues? Family? You definitely chat with us here on HN. All of these people share things with you constantly. There's a funny obsession in tech circles to gather all the information they can as quick as possible. I much prefer to optimize for the quality of information I'm ingesting.
    - thaumasiotes 7mo ago
      > The answer to your question is: same as we always did before! Do you talk to friends? Colleagues? Family? You definitely chat with us here on HN. All of these people share things with you constantly. So, in your opinion, we can cut out the reliance on third parties by relying on third parties?

repeekad 7mo ago

Technology Connections referred to this as “algorithmic complacency”, young people don’t like Bluesky because they have to decide for themselves what content to follow instead of a default algorithm feed

nazgulsenpai 7mo ago

I use a similar argument to those who say that gaming is dead. Sure, if you're waiting for $AAA_DEVELOPER to change, it's probably dead, but you don't even have to look that far to find amazing games everywhere in indie and AA.

johnnyanmac 7mo ago
Gaming feels dead to devs these days. But I know that's not what gamers care about.
polothesecond 7mo ago
Sadly indie developers are only just starting get into my preferred genre. I am excited to see how a number of upcoming titles turn out, but for the time I’m stuck waiting for $AAA_DEVELOPER to change. I’ve had half the mind to just try my own hand at game dev again.

dryarzeg 7mo ago

That is true to some extent. However, let me ask you one simple question: how would you try to search for something if you are not aware of it's existence? In other words, how people that are not aware of existence of open-source projects (such as OpenTTD) are supposed to discover them if they're not searching for them on purpose (which is impossible given that they have no clue about their existence)? Of course there will be some ways like social media or something else. But that question is what seems to worry many people in our case, in my humble opinion. Remember that most of the planet's population is not even aware of existence of open-source projects and open-source concept itself. So how are they supposed to discover it if they don't know about it? When it's present on platforms like Steam and GOG, it helps to spread the word, but when it's not... Well, I guess that seems to be a problem for some people.

zer00eyz 7mo ago
> In other words, how people that are not aware of existence of open-source projects (such as OpenTTD) are supposed to discover them if they're not searching for them on purpose (which is impossible given that they have no clue about their existence)? This question tickles me. In the before time, something would be so good you were compelled to tell someone about it. Sriracha, Costco are brands you likely know that dont advertise, and somehow got popular. In the 90's there were bands that were massively popular with little to no air play, and less promotion (Fugazi is a great example).
- starkparker 7mo ago
  probably a little telling that you don't seem to know the name of the sriracha brand you're referring to that does zero-dollar advertising
  - whstl 7mo ago
    Does it matter? People just look for the bottle with a rooster anyway.
    - 7mo ago

itsdesmond 7mo ago

This is as good an argument as saying that Americans with unhealthy diets bear sole responsibility, ignoring the massive corporate efforts to convince them of the healthfulness of highly processed foods. While, obviously, individuals have ultimate responsibility for their actions, ignoring the concerted efforts to influence those actions through psychology, marketing/ads, paid “experts”, paid influencers and celebrities, lobbies, blah blah et cetera. When I started using the internet, if I asked someone what the internet was I was unlikely to get any answer at all. It was new. I had to define it for myself. Ask a 6 year old what the internet is. It’s YouTube. TikTok. Roblox. Experiences that are designed to keep them there. It is obviously more difficult for an individual to engage with the open web than it ever has been (for those with access at all).

skydhash 7mo ago
> It is obviously more difficult for an individual to engage with the open web than it ever has been (for those with access at all). It’s very easy. If you’re a producer, you maintain a separate presence outside the walled platforms. If you’re a consumer, you look outside the walled platform for content.
- itsdesmond 7mo ago
  Hey maybe I’m wrong, overthinking it. Maybe the problem is that simple. Maybe you can only see things simply. There’s simply no way to tell.
- johnnyanmac 7mo ago
  >It’s very easy. If you’re a producer, you maintain a separate presence outside the walled platforms. I want to try one day. Steam's pricing parity adds friction to that, though. I can't reward people for venturing to a place where they own their software, and that seems to be the only real way to move many.
Barrin92 7mo ago
>ignoring the concerted efforts to influence those actions Ignorance isn't the point. The issue is that it's your responsibility to stop them. the buck always stops at "I". Are they just going to stop themselves? Is your neighbor going to stop them for you? If so, why should she if you don't? As Kant said, enlightenment is getting out of your self inflicted tutelage. When is it self inflicted? When you have the reason but lack the courage to act without direction from someone else. Yes, there's influencers and lobbies but the solutions are still one search away. Even Google doesn't hide the alternatives from you. And sure we can force feed every American veggies and force install linux on their computers but that'd defeat the point.

jl6 7mo ago

The open internet is a whisper in a screaming crowd. Yes, it’s technically still there.

Rapzid 7mo ago

I played quite a bit of OpenTTD a year or so ago and I'm pretty sure I downloaded it straight from their site.

toyg 7mo ago

Although I agree on the general point, it's technically not true that the internet is "still at open as it always was". Nation states are increasingly putting up barriers and filters, and (pushed by commercial interests) forcing people to identify themselves.

lstodd 7mo ago
All things considered it's still much easier to get to the open internet through those laughable barriers than in say 1995 over 14400 modem tied to a landline of quite horrible quality. And I actually worked at dialup ISP in 1996-1998. Push to identify is tied to platforms again, which aren't quite what I'd consider open. Filters are meh, minimal technical competence, much less than was required in 1990s and you get through no problem. Until the moment the government idiots panic and cut off connectivity entirely it's fine. And if it came to that, you'd better be fleeing the country because the next steps are death squads knocking at your door and cruise missiles/drones raining. Many people here are very worried about discoverability. I find this baffling tbh. It's as if "internet" is the top 10 google results and no more.