6 ms·

It's a country with a lot of guns. Police do regularly get shot at when raiding. And police departments get sent videos of every officer death from around the

It's a country with a lot of guns. Police do regularly get shot at when raiding. And police departments get sent videos of every officer death from around the country and regularly watch them for "training purposes". So it makes sense that they are in a constant state of paranoia.

martin_a 7mo ago
> It's a country with a lot of guns. Police do regularly get shot at when raiding. Call me naive, but I think this could be solved by stricter gun laws. Yes, bad guys might have guns, but that's the case everywhere around the world. But being afraid that everybody could have a gun and use it against you while doing your work must clearly change something in your behaviour as a police officer... Why not calm down the whole situation by reducing the number of guns then...
- Aurornis 7mo ago
  > Yes, bad guys might have guns, but that's the case everywhere around the world. The number of guns in the hands of bad guys caries drastically around the world. You can’t reduce this to “it’s the same everywhere” because it’s not.
  - martin_a 7mo ago
    True! What I meant is that I think German police, for example, are probably less worried that a traffic stop is likely to get them killed or have them escalate a situation to the use of lethal force. I think this might be different in the US because guns are just much more common there.
    - fc417fc802 7mo ago
      I think that's true but it's not guns alone it's broadly cultural in nature. Different places are different. Even in the US there are vast differences between regions.
      - miramba 7mo ago
        I think “culture change” is what is ultimately proposed here.
    - Shocka1 7mo ago
      Yep, you definitely can't compare the USA to Germany. The rate of non-gun violence alone is a good starting point, then the slew of other stuff. Guns, mental health and tendencies towards violence in both rural and urban low income areas. Icing on top is the deeply polarized attitudes towards police. The list goes on and on...
- fc417fc802 7mo ago
  That's like observing that we could probably solve the issue of people saying mean things on the internet by requiring ID to access it. You have to consider any expected negative consequences as well as if you'd be violating any rights.
  - LPisGood 7mo ago
    We’ve seen other highly developed countries operate just fine without arming their citizenry to the teeth.
    - fc417fc802 7mo ago
      We've also seen it go wrong plenty of times. They can do them and we can do us I figure; I'm quite happy with my gun rights thanks. There are highly developed countries that tightly regulate speech and network access relative to most of the west. Does that mean adopting an ID requirement to post on Twitter coupled with anti hate speech laws would be an obviously good thing?
      - LPisGood 7mo ago
        If tweets were a leading cause of death in children we should probably at least consider making it harder to tweet.
        fc417fc802 7mo ago
        It was an arbitrary example. Try to see past the politically charged topic to the actual analogy that I'm attempting to make. The point of my original reply wasn't about the position being expressed but rather the stated reasoning. If your logic amounts to "Y could solve X therefore we should be doing Y" notice that when applied to other things that line of reasoning doesn't seem to hold up very well. If you want to have a discussion about child mortality versus tail risks such as elections being suspended or the government murdering protesters a la Iran that's fine but please realize that wasn't the point of my earlier reply.
    - 7mo ago
- terminalshort 7mo ago
  You are naive for assuming that the government aren't the bad guys with guns. Just ask the 30,000 Iranian protesters that were slaughtered if you don't believe me.
- qup 7mo ago
  You can hardly make stricter gun laws; we have a right to them in this country. It's hard to limit the guns without infringing on the right of the people.
  - maest 7mo ago
    Maybe that right is not worth the trade off
    - mothballed 7mo ago
      Unless you change the culture it will be just like the drug war. Firearms familiarity and possession are a cultural rite of passage for ~most males in the USA and there is no way to regulate that in a way that meaningfully stops it short of perhaps large-scale death penalty. Pretty much everyone in Europe that wants a gun can have one within a couple weeks, the reason they don't only has a little to do with the law.
      - wafflemaker 7mo ago
        To get a gun in Norway i need 6 months in a shooting sports club. And then can only take the gun with me for shooting exercise. Strictly prohibited to have a round chambered when not standing on the shooting lane. And then only after an order from the guy running the training.
        Helloworldboy 7mo ago
        [dead]
        martin_a 7mo ago
        Again, a bit naive, but that actually sounds okay to me. You'll learn to use the gun responsibly and in a controlled manner. What else would you want to do with it and why?
        wafflemaker 7mo ago
dpark 7mo ago
> Police do regularly get shot at when raiding. I wonder what the ratio of police deaths during no knock raids vs peacefully served search warrants. I certainly believe that bursting through someone’s door with guns drawn is a high risk activity. It seems like maybe no one needed to do that in this case, though.
- mothballed 7mo ago
  I think the traffic stop paranoia stems from a couple high profile incidents like (1) Brannan in Georgia (2) Darian Jarrott executed after the feds/HSI setup a drug sting but use NMSP trooper as a sacrificial lamb and then mosie their way on over after for the aftermath. [1] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Police_Shootout_-_Deputy_Kyle_Dinkheller_-_Laurens_County,_GA.webm https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Police_Shootout_-_De... [2] https://youtu.be/NqxTf-Vz12o?t=475 https://youtu.be/NqxTf-Vz12o?t=475 I've seen police in online forums reference these a lot when any talks come up of toning down their immediate instinct to draw their guns. Basically in the US the feds will use local/state police as a sacrifice and not tell them that they're part of a sting of armed violent criminals so they're basically getting set up by HSI etc on purpose for surprises.
  - dpark 7mo ago
    I’m not sure there’s a general trend of federal officers using state/local officers sacrificially, but no doubt these cases are hammered into officers’ minds over and over.
  - wat10000 7mo ago
    It's worth pointing out that, while being a cop is a somewhat dangerous profession, it doesn't even crack the top 10. It's much more dangerous to be a tree trimmer, non-airline pilot, logger, roofer, etc. than it is to be a cop. What's more, a significant portion of that danger comes from the fact that they're driving around a lot and spend a lot of time by the side of the road and that means they end up the victim of crashes while on the job. The biggest risk when conducting a traffic stop isn't the risk that the people you're stopping might decide to kill you, it's that some dumbass thinks his texting is more important than looking at the road, drifts onto the shoulder, and plows into you.
pizlonator 7mo ago
> Police do regularly get shot at when raiding. Got any data? It happens daily? Weekly? Monthly? What is "regularly"?
- EQmWgw87pw 7mo ago
  Doing quick research says about 1 shot at per day, 1-2 fatalities per week, and about 26,000 assaults per year
  - dpark 7mo ago
    That’s total officers shot, not specifically for raids. A NYT investigation indicated there were “at least 13” officer deaths tied to forced entry raids from 2010-2016, so around 2/year. It’s unclear how many other fatalities happen in no knock raids. Given that there are only 50-60 total fatalities/year it’s surprising there isn’t comprehensive data for this. https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/03/18/us/forced-entry-warrant-drug-raid.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/03/18/us/forced-ent... There are an estimated 20k-80k no-knock warrants in the US every year for context.
breakyerself 7mo ago
Policing isn't in the top ten most dangerous jobs. It's usually listed around the 15-25th most dangerous job in the US. Many Americans including myself are regularly in more danger. Also around 40% of police deaths are accidents.
- breakyerself 7mo ago
  It's also interesting to note that while violent crime and homicide in the United States have been declining for many years interpersonal violence has overtaken accidents as the leading cause of police on the job deaths. It seems unlikely the cause of this is more violence among Americans. Since the overall rate is going down. It seems like changes in policing and attitudes and tactics have resulted in more officer deaths from interpersonal violence. Perhaps more de-escalation would save more police officers lives.
  - kej 7mo ago
    >interpersonal violence has overtaken accidents as the leading cause of police on the job deaths. Do you have a source for this? Not trying to argue, I would genuinely like to read more.
    - breakyerself 7mo ago
      Upon closer inspection it seems it's more a result of decreasing accident rates than increasing homicide rates although that is a factor lately. https://usafacts.org/articles/how-many-police-officers-die-in-the-line-of-duty/?utm_source=perplexity https://usafacts.org/articles/how-many-police-officers-die-i...
      - wat10000 7mo ago
        That gives a homicide rate for cops of about 7.5 per 100,000. That's a bit less than twice the US national average, and about on par with the overall murder rate in the Carolinas or Mississippi. Seems pretty good for a profession that would logically bring a substantially increased exposure to murderers.
coryrc 7mo ago
They should stop "raiding" people's homes. They don't raid schools when there's someone actively killing children. They can just hold off a bit and get people when they're on the move.
- themaninthedark 7mo ago
  They are supposed to. That was the lesson learned from Columbine. That is also why the police response in Uvalde is highly criticized.
  - coryrc 7mo ago
    They should quickly move into schools, yes. People's homes? No.

martin_a 7mo ago

> It's a country with a lot of guns. Police do regularly get shot at when raiding. Call me naive, but I think this could be solved by stricter gun laws. Yes, bad guys might have guns, but that's the case everywhere around the world. But being afraid that everybody could have a gun and use it against you while doing your work must clearly change something in your behaviour as a police officer... Why not calm down the whole situation by reducing the number of guns then...

Aurornis 7mo ago
> Yes, bad guys might have guns, but that's the case everywhere around the world. The number of guns in the hands of bad guys caries drastically around the world. You can’t reduce this to “it’s the same everywhere” because it’s not.
- martin_a 7mo ago
  True! What I meant is that I think German police, for example, are probably less worried that a traffic stop is likely to get them killed or have them escalate a situation to the use of lethal force. I think this might be different in the US because guns are just much more common there.
  - fc417fc802 7mo ago
    I think that's true but it's not guns alone it's broadly cultural in nature. Different places are different. Even in the US there are vast differences between regions.
    - miramba 7mo ago
      I think “culture change” is what is ultimately proposed here.
  - Shocka1 7mo ago
    Yep, you definitely can't compare the USA to Germany. The rate of non-gun violence alone is a good starting point, then the slew of other stuff. Guns, mental health and tendencies towards violence in both rural and urban low income areas. Icing on top is the deeply polarized attitudes towards police. The list goes on and on...
fc417fc802 7mo ago
That's like observing that we could probably solve the issue of people saying mean things on the internet by requiring ID to access it. You have to consider any expected negative consequences as well as if you'd be violating any rights.
- LPisGood 7mo ago
  We’ve seen other highly developed countries operate just fine without arming their citizenry to the teeth.
  - fc417fc802 7mo ago
    We've also seen it go wrong plenty of times. They can do them and we can do us I figure; I'm quite happy with my gun rights thanks. There are highly developed countries that tightly regulate speech and network access relative to most of the west. Does that mean adopting an ID requirement to post on Twitter coupled with anti hate speech laws would be an obviously good thing?
    - LPisGood 7mo ago
      If tweets were a leading cause of death in children we should probably at least consider making it harder to tweet.
      - fc417fc802 7mo ago
        It was an arbitrary example. Try to see past the politically charged topic to the actual analogy that I'm attempting to make. The point of my original reply wasn't about the position being expressed but rather the stated reasoning. If your logic amounts to "Y could solve X therefore we should be doing Y" notice that when applied to other things that line of reasoning doesn't seem to hold up very well. If you want to have a discussion about child mortality versus tail risks such as elections being suspended or the government murdering protesters a la Iran that's fine but please realize that wasn't the point of my earlier reply.
  - 7mo ago
terminalshort 7mo ago
You are naive for assuming that the government aren't the bad guys with guns. Just ask the 30,000 Iranian protesters that were slaughtered if you don't believe me.
qup 7mo ago
You can hardly make stricter gun laws; we have a right to them in this country. It's hard to limit the guns without infringing on the right of the people.
- maest 7mo ago
  Maybe that right is not worth the trade off
  - mothballed 7mo ago
    Unless you change the culture it will be just like the drug war. Firearms familiarity and possession are a cultural rite of passage for ~most males in the USA and there is no way to regulate that in a way that meaningfully stops it short of perhaps large-scale death penalty. Pretty much everyone in Europe that wants a gun can have one within a couple weeks, the reason they don't only has a little to do with the law.
    - wafflemaker 7mo ago
      To get a gun in Norway i need 6 months in a shooting sports club. And then can only take the gun with me for shooting exercise. Strictly prohibited to have a round chambered when not standing on the shooting lane. And then only after an order from the guy running the training.
      - Helloworldboy 7mo ago
        [dead]
      - martin_a 7mo ago
        Again, a bit naive, but that actually sounds okay to me. You'll learn to use the gun responsibly and in a controlled manner. What else would you want to do with it and why?
        wafflemaker 7mo ago

dpark 7mo ago

> Police do regularly get shot at when raiding. I wonder what the ratio of police deaths during no knock raids vs peacefully served search warrants. I certainly believe that bursting through someone’s door with guns drawn is a high risk activity. It seems like maybe no one needed to do that in this case, though.

mothballed 7mo ago
I think the traffic stop paranoia stems from a couple high profile incidents like (1) Brannan in Georgia (2) Darian Jarrott executed after the feds/HSI setup a drug sting but use NMSP trooper as a sacrificial lamb and then mosie their way on over after for the aftermath. [1] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Police_Shootout_-_Deputy_Kyle_Dinkheller_-_Laurens_County,_GA.webm https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Police_Shootout_-_De... [2] https://youtu.be/NqxTf-Vz12o?t=475 https://youtu.be/NqxTf-Vz12o?t=475 I've seen police in online forums reference these a lot when any talks come up of toning down their immediate instinct to draw their guns. Basically in the US the feds will use local/state police as a sacrifice and not tell them that they're part of a sting of armed violent criminals so they're basically getting set up by HSI etc on purpose for surprises.
- dpark 7mo ago
  I’m not sure there’s a general trend of federal officers using state/local officers sacrificially, but no doubt these cases are hammered into officers’ minds over and over.
- wat10000 7mo ago
  It's worth pointing out that, while being a cop is a somewhat dangerous profession, it doesn't even crack the top 10. It's much more dangerous to be a tree trimmer, non-airline pilot, logger, roofer, etc. than it is to be a cop. What's more, a significant portion of that danger comes from the fact that they're driving around a lot and spend a lot of time by the side of the road and that means they end up the victim of crashes while on the job. The biggest risk when conducting a traffic stop isn't the risk that the people you're stopping might decide to kill you, it's that some dumbass thinks his texting is more important than looking at the road, drifts onto the shoulder, and plows into you.

pizlonator 7mo ago

> Police do regularly get shot at when raiding. Got any data? It happens daily? Weekly? Monthly? What is "regularly"?

EQmWgw87pw 7mo ago
Doing quick research says about 1 shot at per day, 1-2 fatalities per week, and about 26,000 assaults per year
- dpark 7mo ago
  That’s total officers shot, not specifically for raids. A NYT investigation indicated there were “at least 13” officer deaths tied to forced entry raids from 2010-2016, so around 2/year. It’s unclear how many other fatalities happen in no knock raids. Given that there are only 50-60 total fatalities/year it’s surprising there isn’t comprehensive data for this. https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/03/18/us/forced-entry-warrant-drug-raid.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/03/18/us/forced-ent... There are an estimated 20k-80k no-knock warrants in the US every year for context.

breakyerself 7mo ago

Policing isn't in the top ten most dangerous jobs. It's usually listed around the 15-25th most dangerous job in the US. Many Americans including myself are regularly in more danger. Also around 40% of police deaths are accidents.

breakyerself 7mo ago
It's also interesting to note that while violent crime and homicide in the United States have been declining for many years interpersonal violence has overtaken accidents as the leading cause of police on the job deaths. It seems unlikely the cause of this is more violence among Americans. Since the overall rate is going down. It seems like changes in policing and attitudes and tactics have resulted in more officer deaths from interpersonal violence. Perhaps more de-escalation would save more police officers lives.
- kej 7mo ago
  >interpersonal violence has overtaken accidents as the leading cause of police on the job deaths. Do you have a source for this? Not trying to argue, I would genuinely like to read more.
  - breakyerself 7mo ago
    Upon closer inspection it seems it's more a result of decreasing accident rates than increasing homicide rates although that is a factor lately. https://usafacts.org/articles/how-many-police-officers-die-in-the-line-of-duty/?utm_source=perplexity https://usafacts.org/articles/how-many-police-officers-die-i...
    - wat10000 7mo ago
      That gives a homicide rate for cops of about 7.5 per 100,000. That's a bit less than twice the US national average, and about on par with the overall murder rate in the Carolinas or Mississippi. Seems pretty good for a profession that would logically bring a substantially increased exposure to murderers.

coryrc 7mo ago

They should stop "raiding" people's homes. They don't raid schools when there's someone actively killing children. They can just hold off a bit and get people when they're on the move.

themaninthedark 7mo ago
They are supposed to. That was the lesson learned from Columbine. That is also why the police response in Uvalde is highly criticized.
- coryrc 7mo ago
  They should quickly move into schools, yes. People's homes? No.