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I'm of pretty mixed feelings about this. It certainly strengthened Europe's collective defense priorities and awareness. That response happens to include NATO b

I'm of pretty mixed feelings about this. It certainly strengthened Europe's collective defense priorities and awareness. That response happens to include NATO but primarily because Europe is too weak without NATO. Europe used to be full of world powers and now they collectively can't manage collective defense without the US? There's something very learned-helplessness about that. And yes, it certainly has served America's interests to have a weak Europe that's dependent on it. But seeing that as "good will" seems like a distortion.

fifilura 7mo ago
Maybe a bit of learned helplessness, but what people tend to forget is that an all-in Russia is a formidable enemy. This is the moment it helps to have allies. Like an insurance. Even if you can manage without, it hurts less if you have them. To me it makes more sense to focus on that perspective.
- jacquesm 7mo ago
  > but what people tend to forget is that an all-in Russia is a formidable enemy So you're saying they've been keeping their best in reserve?
  - fifilura 7mo ago
    No
energy123 7mo ago
Kissinger warned about this in 1969: > Tutelage is a comfortable relationship for the senior partner, but it is demoralizing in the long run. It breeds illusions of omniscience on one side and attitudes of impotent irresponsibility on the other
mcv 7mo ago
Europe's weakness is mostly in their heads. The US is the most powerful military in the world, but the second most powerful military is NATO without the US. If the rest of NATO pulls together and reorganises into an effective military that doesn't depend on the US, it would be a force to be reckoned with. Europe could easily defeat Russia without outside help (look at how well Ukraine is doing with far less!), but we still fear Russia because that's what we're used to. That's what we were told to do and what we have embraced. We need to grow out of that and stand on our own feet again.
- red-iron-pine 7mo ago
  > Europe could easily defeat Russia without outside help (look at how well Ukraine is doing with far less!) Ukraine has received unbelieviable levels of aid from NATO, esp. the US. 10000+ Javelin missiles, WW3 levels of cluster munitions that were slated to be decommissioned in the US, multiple factories in the EU making shells that go straight to the AFU (e.g. Bulgarian 152mm), etc. there is no way they'd have made it 6+ months let alone 4 years without the US' heavy backing.
  - mcv 7mo ago
    Much of their support has also come from the EU, and the EU has a lot more than that. The EU has more fighters and ships, more tanks, more soldiers. It is true that the EU didn't and still doesn't have deep ammo reserves, though. But it has far more capacity to ramp up production of these than Russia has; the Russian economy is about the size of that of the Benelux.
    - jacquesm 7mo ago
      > It is true that the EU didn't and still doesn't have deep ammo reserves, though Indeed it is true. But it is also changing, the stockpiles are growing.
      - mcv 7mo ago
        Absolutely. The EU is now finally but rapidly adapting to these geopolitical changes. Defense budgets are now far higher than the 2% that used to be the goal that nobody met. In the 1990s everybody was eager to believe that war was finally and forever over. Some held on to that delusion for a bit too long, but not anymore.
        jacquesm 7mo ago
        Merkel has a lot to answer for. Handel durch wandel... pull the other one. After Grozny there should have been absolutely no doubt.

fifilura 7mo ago

Maybe a bit of learned helplessness, but what people tend to forget is that an all-in Russia is a formidable enemy. This is the moment it helps to have allies. Like an insurance. Even if you can manage without, it hurts less if you have them. To me it makes more sense to focus on that perspective.

jacquesm 7mo ago
> but what people tend to forget is that an all-in Russia is a formidable enemy So you're saying they've been keeping their best in reserve?
- fifilura 7mo ago
  No

energy123 7mo ago

Kissinger warned about this in 1969: > Tutelage is a comfortable relationship for the senior partner, but it is demoralizing in the long run. It breeds illusions of omniscience on one side and attitudes of impotent irresponsibility on the other

mcv 7mo ago

Europe's weakness is mostly in their heads. The US is the most powerful military in the world, but the second most powerful military is NATO without the US. If the rest of NATO pulls together and reorganises into an effective military that doesn't depend on the US, it would be a force to be reckoned with. Europe could easily defeat Russia without outside help (look at how well Ukraine is doing with far less!), but we still fear Russia because that's what we're used to. That's what we were told to do and what we have embraced. We need to grow out of that and stand on our own feet again.

red-iron-pine 7mo ago
> Europe could easily defeat Russia without outside help (look at how well Ukraine is doing with far less!) Ukraine has received unbelieviable levels of aid from NATO, esp. the US. 10000+ Javelin missiles, WW3 levels of cluster munitions that were slated to be decommissioned in the US, multiple factories in the EU making shells that go straight to the AFU (e.g. Bulgarian 152mm), etc. there is no way they'd have made it 6+ months let alone 4 years without the US' heavy backing.
- mcv 7mo ago
  Much of their support has also come from the EU, and the EU has a lot more than that. The EU has more fighters and ships, more tanks, more soldiers. It is true that the EU didn't and still doesn't have deep ammo reserves, though. But it has far more capacity to ramp up production of these than Russia has; the Russian economy is about the size of that of the Benelux.
  - jacquesm 7mo ago
    > It is true that the EU didn't and still doesn't have deep ammo reserves, though Indeed it is true. But it is also changing, the stockpiles are growing.
    - mcv 7mo ago
      Absolutely. The EU is now finally but rapidly adapting to these geopolitical changes. Defense budgets are now far higher than the 2% that used to be the goal that nobody met. In the 1990s everybody was eager to believe that war was finally and forever over. Some held on to that delusion for a bit too long, but not anymore.
      - jacquesm 7mo ago
        Merkel has a lot to answer for. Handel durch wandel... pull the other one. After Grozny there should have been absolutely no doubt.