4 ms·

Yes, this is could be a much better project if it was written fresh, and preferably in a different language altogether.

by pi18n 14y ago

bergie 14y ago
PHP has the big benefit of being deployable anywhere. Without that fact it is unlikely that projects like Drupal or WordPress would've taken off as they have.
- Karunamon 14y ago
  Newer languages aren't? Every linux distro that matters (including BSD, Gentoo, and others with a ports system), heck even Windows, has a full Rails stack that's about two commands away from being fully set up. Unless I misunderstood what you mean, here :)
  - huskyr 14y ago
    Sure, you're right. But i suspect that 95% of all WP installs are by non-techies on shared hosting, that very rarely have Rails or Python support.
    - mosselman 14y ago
      Yes thats the way to create great new products. Make it easy for non-techies to get them up and running and make sure they run on shared hosting and are created in a language that beginners use to learn about programming.
      - drivingmenuts 14y ago
        I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not, so I'll just assume the worst. Yes, it is - there's a lot more non-techies than there are of the other kind, so it makes sense that you focus your efforts on the larger market. As for the whole "language that beginners use to learn about programming", do you mean Python or Java? PHP is everywhere but the last I checked, Python and Java are the teaching and taught languages. PHP itself is designed to get things done, not necessarily elegantly. For all it's problems, it is a workhorse and blaming the language for what the users have done is just wrong. Programming languages are like hammers and should not prevent one from doing something stupid or irresponsible. Doing the smart or right thing is the responsibility of the user.
        goldfeld 14y ago
        Let's switch Java for Javascript and Python for Coffeescript as far as similar syntaxes go. In any case, regardless of existing userbase, doing a forward looking project in backward looking technologies doesn't sound right to me. Go with Node, or Clojure if easily deployable today is a must.
        mgkimsal 14y ago
        "easily deployable" for Clojure or Node isn't even on the radar for 99% of people. I go to any $5/month host, check "install wordpress", and it's done. When Clojure CMS/blog apps have even 1% of the installability (as in, ability to be installed) by non-developers, perhaps they'll have a fighting chance. I say this as someone who develops Grails apps all day long.
        goldfeld 14y ago
        Granted I don't know the state of Clojure, but I thought running on the JVM would make it easily deployable most anywhere. Of course then having a blog engine or cms built in Clojure that's easy to install is another problem, but this thread is exactly discussing such a solution.
        papsosouid 14y ago
        >I go to any $5/month host, check "install wordpress", and it's done. That is a function of popularity, not language. If some blogging app had a userbase the size of wordpress's, it wouldn't matter if it were written in PHP or brainfuck, shared hosting providers will set it up. This is why appealing to techies makes sense. They will be the ones setting it up in the initial "its not popular yet" phase, and if they don't use it, it will never get off the ground. Once they start setting it up for their friends/family/etc, a few companies start offering it as an option for their hosting. Then a few more, and it snowballs as the app gets more and more popular. Trying to start from "use PHP so end users will use it" doesn't work, because installing a PHP app is just as hard for them as installing anything else.
        14y ago
      - deleted 14y ago
        [deleted]
    - lukeschlather 14y ago
      I have only run across one host that didn't have Ruby / Python available, and they were charging 4x the market rate for bad shared hosting - we easily saved $15 / month by ditching them. Anyone that only has PHP likely also doesn't have their PHP/MySQL updated to the point that anyone should trust them.
      - geon 14y ago
        One.com (big in europe) have only php support but offers unlimited network for €1.25/month. They run recent-ish php (5.3 i think).
    - deleted 14y ago
      [deleted]
  - bergie 14y ago
    I meant being able to drop the application files to almost any web server (including cheap hosting providers) and just have it run
  - izad 14y ago
    What are those two commands?
    - Karunamon 14y ago
      apt-get/yum install ruby rubygems gem install rails
      - dasil003 14y ago
        That's not sufficient to serve a Rails site though. Rails is a great platform for building a custom web app, but it's a terrible platform for building an open-source blogging platform. It simply moves too quickly and breaks things too often to be useful for the demographic that uses WordPress. When you're talking about web code with such an astronomical deployment to developer ratio, the advantages of PHP are magnified by several orders of magnitude. Even the perfect WordPress replacement written in Rails with elegant, featureful and performant Ruby code digitized by God's own hand is by definition a niche product that can never hope to compete meaningfully with WordPress.

Yes, this is could be a much better project if it was written fresh, and preferably in a different language altogether.

by pi18n 14y ago

Yes, this is could be a much better project if it was written fresh, and preferably in a different language altogether.

PHP has the big benefit of being deployable anywhere. Without that fact it is unlikely that projects like Drupal or WordPress would've taken off as they have.

Karunamon 14y ago
Newer languages aren't? Every linux distro that matters (including BSD, Gentoo, and others with a ports system), heck even Windows, has a full Rails stack that's about two commands away from being fully set up. Unless I misunderstood what you mean, here :)
- huskyr 14y ago
  Sure, you're right. But i suspect that 95% of all WP installs are by non-techies on shared hosting, that very rarely have Rails or Python support.
  - mosselman 14y ago
    Yes thats the way to create great new products. Make it easy for non-techies to get them up and running and make sure they run on shared hosting and are created in a language that beginners use to learn about programming.
    - drivingmenuts 14y ago
      I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not, so I'll just assume the worst. Yes, it is - there's a lot more non-techies than there are of the other kind, so it makes sense that you focus your efforts on the larger market. As for the whole "language that beginners use to learn about programming", do you mean Python or Java? PHP is everywhere but the last I checked, Python and Java are the teaching and taught languages. PHP itself is designed to get things done, not necessarily elegantly. For all it's problems, it is a workhorse and blaming the language for what the users have done is just wrong. Programming languages are like hammers and should not prevent one from doing something stupid or irresponsible. Doing the smart or right thing is the responsibility of the user.
      - goldfeld 14y ago
        Let's switch Java for Javascript and Python for Coffeescript as far as similar syntaxes go. In any case, regardless of existing userbase, doing a forward looking project in backward looking technologies doesn't sound right to me. Go with Node, or Clojure if easily deployable today is a must.
        mgkimsal 14y ago
        "easily deployable" for Clojure or Node isn't even on the radar for 99% of people. I go to any $5/month host, check "install wordpress", and it's done. When Clojure CMS/blog apps have even 1% of the installability (as in, ability to be installed) by non-developers, perhaps they'll have a fighting chance. I say this as someone who develops Grails apps all day long.
        goldfeld 14y ago
        Granted I don't know the state of Clojure, but I thought running on the JVM would make it easily deployable most anywhere. Of course then having a blog engine or cms built in Clojure that's easy to install is another problem, but this thread is exactly discussing such a solution.
        papsosouid 14y ago
        >I go to any $5/month host, check "install wordpress", and it's done. That is a function of popularity, not language. If some blogging app had a userbase the size of wordpress's, it wouldn't matter if it were written in PHP or brainfuck, shared hosting providers will set it up. This is why appealing to techies makes sense. They will be the ones setting it up in the initial "its not popular yet" phase, and if they don't use it, it will never get off the ground. Once they start setting it up for their friends/family/etc, a few companies start offering it as an option for their hosting. Then a few more, and it snowballs as the app gets more and more popular. Trying to start from "use PHP so end users will use it" doesn't work, because installing a PHP app is just as hard for them as installing anything else.
        14y ago
    - deleted 14y ago
      [deleted]
  - lukeschlather 14y ago
    I have only run across one host that didn't have Ruby / Python available, and they were charging 4x the market rate for bad shared hosting - we easily saved $15 / month by ditching them. Anyone that only has PHP likely also doesn't have their PHP/MySQL updated to the point that anyone should trust them.
    - geon 14y ago
      One.com (big in europe) have only php support but offers unlimited network for €1.25/month. They run recent-ish php (5.3 i think).
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
- bergie 14y ago
  I meant being able to drop the application files to almost any web server (including cheap hosting providers) and just have it run
- izad 14y ago
  What are those two commands?
  - Karunamon 14y ago
    apt-get/yum install ruby rubygems gem install rails
    - dasil003 14y ago
      That's not sufficient to serve a Rails site though. Rails is a great platform for building a custom web app, but it's a terrible platform for building an open-source blogging platform. It simply moves too quickly and breaks things too often to be useful for the demographic that uses WordPress. When you're talking about web code with such an astronomical deployment to developer ratio, the advantages of PHP are magnified by several orders of magnitude. Even the perfect WordPress replacement written in Rails with elegant, featureful and performant Ruby code digitized by God's own hand is by definition a niche product that can never hope to compete meaningfully with WordPress.