7 ms·
The other major incentive for hacking the console Microsoft removed was for the first time on a modern mainstream home console to allow side loading of homebrew
by giobox 7mo ago
The other major incentive for hacking the console Microsoft removed was for the first time on a modern mainstream home console to allow side loading of homebrew code/emulators etc. The console supported a developer mode that allowed side loading of third party applications, so folks could get emulators and other traditionally "banned" content on the console through an officially supported route.
There's a great presentation by Tony Chen on the Xbox One's security features:
> https://www.platformsecuritysummit.com/2019/speaker/chen/ https://www.platformsecuritysummit.com/2019/speaker/chen/
Examples of the kinda software you can put on the Xbox One in developer mode:
> https://xboxdevstore.github.io/ https://xboxdevstore.github.io/
- philistine 7mo agoYou are 100% correct but they started clamping down on people using Dev mode strictly for emulators and homebrew. So here we are.
- pjmlp 7mo agoThis is what killed Linux support on PS as well, Sony was disappointed with what was being done with PS2Linux, instead of indie titles. Hence why PS3 Other OS no longer did hardware acceleration.
- beAbU 7mo agoThe PS3 was incredible value dollar-to-flop, given that it was sold at a loss. This resulted in universities and other research institutes buying them en masse to create supercomputer clusters. Naturally buying thousands of consoles but not a single game puts sony in a difficult position. Although I think it's sad the hardware got locked down in later revisions, I fully understand why they did it.
- mschild 7mo agoThe US Department of Defense went quite a bit further. They created the Condor Cluster in 2010 which was comprised of 1760 PS3s. At the time it was placed 33rd worldwide for a supercomputer. https://phys.org/news/2010-12-air-playstation-3s-supercomputer.html https://phys.org/news/2010-12-air-playstation-3s-supercomput...
- extraduder_ire 7mo agoAt the time, entire PS3s were cheaper than what it cost to get the CPU from IBM.
- genewitch 7mo agoat some point it was claimed that the reason sony removed the ability to run linux was because, literally, Saddam Hussein (maybe not) was using them to pilot jets or somesuch.
- b00ty4breakfast 7mo agoI haven't looked, but I am pretty sure that Saddam was dead before the ps3 launched. At the very least, his 2003/2004 ouster was before the ca 2007ish (I think) launch date.
- b00ty4breakfast 7mo agoOk, I looked it up; Saddam Hussein was executed on December 30, 2006 and the ps3 launched on Nov 11, 2006 in Japan and Nov 17, 2006 in the US. So, technically, he was alive for the launch.
- Intermernet 7mo agoThat factoid has the ingredients for an awesome conspiracy theory ;-)
- genewitch 7mo ago
- AlphaAndOmega0 7mo agoI would be curious to know more precise numbers. My intuition suggests that when Sony sells millions of them, the number diverted for non-gaming purposes is maybe thousands or tens of thousands.
- mr_toad 7mo agoNearly 90 million units by the time it was discontinued, but I'm not sure how many were sold at the point they removed Linux support.
- monocasa 7mo agoThe marketing win of being able to say "these are so poweful, the military literally uses them in supercomputers" certainly more than makes up for a hundredth of a percent of consoles having a zero attach rate.
- vdvebjrc 7mo ago[dead]
- ChoGGi 7mo ago> Although I think it's sad the hardware got locked down in later revisions, I fully understand why they did it. The PS3 was coincidentally locked down after it was jail broken (broken in Jan, otheros patched out in Mar.
- Keyframe 7mo agoLinux on playstation was a play by Sony not to have customs like on a toy but as a more favorable computer merchandise. They didn't care.
- pjmlp 7mo agoNope, that was with YA BASIC.
- monocasa 7mo agoThere were different customs for different countries targetted with different tactics. Ya basic was only one front in that war.
- pjmlp 7mo agoSure, if we disregard that PS2 Linux came almost two years later, was only sold via Internet, added an extra 500 euros on top, although it got discounted into 300 euros at the end of PS2 lifetime. I own one such kit.
- monocasa 7mo agoThat doesn't factor into it, because the tariffs, bans, etc they were trying to circumvent weren't dependent on the software shipping with the device in that case, nor the separate price of the software, nor were they even necessarily primarily targeting Europe. Each of these schemes had different sets of regulatory checkboxes they were trying to tick, and so had very different end products.
- pjmlp 7mo agoSure as you wish, I was a PlayStation fanboy back then, since Yaroze, and surely remember YA BASIC for PS2 and Other OS for PS 3, being the only ones. Yaroze and PS2 Linux never had anything to do with tariffs.
- rustyhancock 7mo agoIn their defense, they clamped down following lobbying (and pressure) from Nintendo IIRC. Part of me also thinks that Microsoft were so forward with offering what was basically a test kit because they were confident in their security.
- extraduder_ire 7mo agoWhy Nintendo? Far as I know, they've never released anything on an xbox console.
- akramachamarei 7mo agoNintendo doesn't want users emulating Nintendo systems in the Xbox is my guess.
- ornornor 7mo agoNintendo is notoriouslg very aggressive with their IP. I bet they weren’t happy you could emulate a switch or something.
- wodenokoto 7mo agoNo, and theyd like to keep their games off of any Xbox.
- gjsman-1000 7mo agoI've seen this argument, but I strongly suspect that it's a cope argument. "We couldn't get in... because... we didn't care to! Even though we've hacked literally every other object on the planet just because." The proof in the pudding of this will be when the Nintendo Switch 2 reaches 2035 with no cracks. That's my prophecy; that this time around the cat actually will catch the mouse. Between NVIDIA's heavily revised glitch-resistant RISC-V security architecture and Nintendo's impeccable microkernel, there's nowhere left to hide. DRM may turn out to have been a very slow long battle to "victory," not a "this will always be defeated."
- mikepurvis 7mo agoWell, and these systems are also designed with ratchet-type measures in place from the get-go, where holes are plugged, fuses are burned, and newly released titles will only decrypt/run on the latest OS. So even if Switch 2 doesn't make it all the way to 2035 with zero cracks, there's a strong likelihood that any exploits found will be short-lived.
- joseda-hg 7mo agoWhich incentivizes people to hold on to exploits for as long as possible, ideally past the console life cycle, just to make sure it can be used, which already is a thing
- selectively 7mo agoI have my doubts. I suspect that Nvidia have made mistakes. Anyway, situations like the one you describe are one to be solved by legislation requiring certain devices be sold as open devices that put power in the hands of the owner.
- genewitch 7mo agomy nintendo switch is "rootable" by shorting two pins in the controller interface, with a previously set up SD card inserted with the homebrew bootloader. My PS3 and PS4 were both jailbroken/rooted. I don't remember the ps3 routine, but the PS4 was loading the "system -> help" page while connected to a ESP32 wifi AP running a simple web server that replied to requests with the jailbreak for PS4. I give it about a year, especially if nintendo has to change the specs or otherwise tampers with customer expectations. there's bound to be some way to reload firmware on a "dead" device without pulling chips, and that's all it takes.
- phire 7mo agoI'm very much of the opinion that PS3's linux support massively delayed its exploitation. And not just because it provided a path for homebrew/linux. A lot of the early hacking focused on trying to breach the hypervisor from otheros. The hypervisor turned out to be quite secure, people smashed their heads against it for years until it finally fell to a memory glitching attack. But turns out it was so much easier to just attack gameos with a USB exploit. The hypervisor did nothing to prevent it, and would then just decrypt games for you (because gameos was trusted)
- layoric 7mo ago"side loading", I know this term is the one used but I think should be pushed back against with just using the standard "installing"/"install". It makes the control point clearer and (should be) unsettling when you can't "install" software on hardware you own.
- markovs_gun 7mo agoYeah I listened to a podcast with Corey Doctorow (inventor of the term "enshittification") and he made this point quite well, to the point where I have completely removed "side loading" from my vocabulary. It's installing software on the computer I own.
- BiteCode_dev 7mo agoIt's a great point. As a geek I used to think those details don't matter, but it turns out language shapes society and how humans think way more than I understood. We need to catch up on this because the people who know how to use language for propagandizing don't have the best intentions in mind. But using the original term is not enough. We need to combat their word-twisting by upping them. We need a way to convey "their way of installing stuff by default is inferior and an attack on liberty". Something like: - direct install: installing as we always did - caged install: installing through a locked store. Maybe somebody better at marketing can find a good way to do this. In fact, we should have a whole site and community to organize together and shift the narrative on all nerdy things: formats, open web, DRM, patents, etc. We have been weak on these points for so long because we care much more about solving tech problems than selling them. But openness is being eaten away under our noses. Has been for years.
- shaky-carrousel 7mo agoSideloading should be called installing, and installing from the store should be called jailloading.
- BiteCode_dev 7mo agoJailoading is quite catchy, although it does have a "Micro$oft" and "Microslop" feel. Like more an insult than a word made to be used daily.
- kotaKat 7mo agoNow if only Sony would let us even have a smidgen of our own code on our Playstations. But nope, Sony would rather gatekeep that one to Hell and back. Instead, they keep stripping stuff off the console. I'm still so annoyed that PS5 doesn't even have an integrated web browser anymore (especially trying to troubleshoot network issues from the console itself). But hey, Sony can leave bullshit exploit vectors open like PPPoE clients on the console itself (why? just use a router?)...