5 ms·

Excellent article, full of excellent thoughts and ideas. I hope it'll remain frontpage material to clear some misrepresentations. "Heard Yeezy was racist, well

by guylhem 14y ago

Excellent article, full of excellent thoughts and ideas. I hope it'll remain frontpage material to clear some misrepresentations. "Heard Yeezy was racist, well, I guess that’s on one basis, I only like green faces." I guess I'm like Kanye then: I'm green-biased, because in the end, that's the only thing that matter - profits :-) "Underrepresentation does not equal racism" is also a great idea to cite - who cares about one's representation? Profits are what matters. Is there a white resentment about having too few white players in the NBA? As long as they are good and get well paid, who cares?

phaus 14y ago
I don't blame my not being in the NBA on the fact that I am white. I blame it on the fact that I'm short and I suck at basketball.
dasil003 14y ago
That quote reminds me of Mitch Hedberg's color joke: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=El65C0u_J3U http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=El65C0u_J3U
Anechoic 14y ago
Profits are what matters No, opportunity is what matters. "Underrepresentation does not equal racism" is true but it may (and I stress "may") be an indicator of disparate impact, and so underrepresentation shouldn't be dismissed. Paul Judge worked his way to the top, and I'm happy for him. That doesn't mean that the only reason other folks haven't (of any race/gender/background) is because they didn't work hard enough.
majormajor 14y ago
So the last line made me think: why do I hate the idea of the All-American Basketball Alliance[1], but support programs to increase diversity in software? But it's not a contradiction: I have seen nothing to lead me to believe that a talented player of any race will not get a fair chance in the NBA. It's all about winning, but the opportunity is there for everyone. So isn't SV all about winning too? Yes, it is—but we know a lot less about what leads to winning. There are no draft combines where everyone gets show what they can do. Nobody writes code competitively directly against other programmers on TV to prove they can produce at a high level. Companies play it by ear. The NBA knows how to evaluate talent. We don't. Here's a fun example: "PayPal once rejected a candidate who aced all the engineering tests because for fun, the guy said that he liked to play hoops. That single sentence lost him the job. No PayPal people would ever have used the world “hoops.” Probably no one even knew how to play “hoops.” Basketball would be bad enough. But “hoops?” That guy clearly wouldn’t have fit in. He’d have had to explain to the team why he was going to go play hoops on a Thursday night. And no one would have understood him."[2] Welp, guess I wouldn't have been able to get hired at PayPal. Not only do I like to play basketball, I've said "shooting hoops" a lot. You're going to turn down someone who aced your tests because of a hobby and the phrase he used to describe it? You really think that's the secret to success? You're flying by the seat of your pants in a world without good metrics and you don't know which things you did contributed to your success and which things didn't. You're actively discouraging diversity of culture (which is not directly the same thing as diversity of gender/race, but it makes it a lot harder to have the latter). And it's that still-sometimes-present active discouragement of diversity that I find frustrating about many parts of the programmer community. [1] a basketball league venture in the southern US that required players be white, that I believe folded quickly a couple of years ago [2] http://blakemasters.tumblr.com/post/21437840885/peter-thiels-cs183-startup-class-5-notes-essay http://blakemasters.tumblr.com/post/21437840885/peter-thiels...
- guylhem 14y ago
  IMHO, it may be a contradiction - there is no need for any specific program to encourage some specific group (even if one is a member of a given group, and could take advantage of the program for profit in the short run, because one don't get better in the long run by having it easier it the short run) I can't say anything about paypal - I wasn't there, and I don't like to pass judgements. But if they indeed were that dumb not to hire a good candidate only for the sports he plays, it's no wonder their product sucks more an more. Personally, I'm eagerly waiting for a competitor until bitcoin gets more momentum. BTW one thing I'd like to say - the opportunity in coding is there for everyone - it's even more open than the NBA because the judge is the market, and with the current technology everyone can easily start a tech company and compete globally. It's a pure and perfect competition. There's no need to be hired be a company - you create your company and show your product to the market. If it works, if it does what people need, you will get money.
  - Anechoic 14y ago
    it's even more open than the NBA because the judge is the market Interesting, I have the exact opposite viewpoint - I can see the result of a software project, but I have very little insight into the contributions behind the scenes. In sports, I (and the rest of the world) can see the contributions of the atheltes and judge merit for ourselves. For example, I know the new iOS maps have problems, but (aside from press leaks) I don't have a lot of insight into who did what. On the other hand, I know from watching Knicks games last season that Jeremy Lin was the real deal. I know the result of the 2012 Super Bowl (Giants beat Patriots) and I also saw the contribution of the team members (for example, Tom Brady throwing a perfect pass to Wes Welker at he end of the game that Welker dropped). I've always see athletics as the closest ideal to a meritocracy that we have in our society.
    - guylhem 14y ago
      We do have opposite viewpoints because I see the one man company or consultant as the closest ideal to a meritocracy. But still +1'ing for this very interesting opinion - because you're right, in a company which more than 1 employee it's hard to judge the individual performance.
raganwald 14y ago
> "Underrepresentation does not equal racism" is also a great idea to cite - who cares about one's representation? It does not 'equal' racism, but then again I don't want to even use the word "racism" in a discussion unless I'm 100% confident everybody agrees on the definition. All too often in discussions like this, I encounter people who have their own pet definitions for the meaning of words like "equality" and "freedom" and "racism/racist." Now I'm guessing you are posting a rhetorical question, but I'll answer it as if you have an open mind and want to hear from people with a diversity of viewpoints. I don't measure results by representation, but I care deeply about removing obstacles to equal representation > Profits are what matters To you. Not to me. Or at least, not more than equality of opportunity. http://raganwald.posterous.com/the-keep http://raganwald.posterous.com/the-keep
- drumdance 14y ago
  I think "racism" is a really toxic word. Just hearing the word, I think of Klan rallies, Bull Connor with firehoses, lynch mobs etc. So when somebody accuses some one else of racism, it seems ridiculous because no sane person alive supports those things. And if you are called a racist, it's natural to get defensive. The words "prejudice" and "bias," however, are not nearly as emotionally charged, and it's possible to interrogate the situation more rationally. He gives the example of Arrington not knowing any black entrepreneurs. I highly doubt it's because he's a member of the KKK. However, it's extremely possible that he has unconscious biases that make it less likely he will meet or remember black entrepreneurs. If you accept that hypothesis for a moment, you can start brainstorming solutions. But if you just say he's a racist, the only solution is to stop hating people of color. What?!
  - raganwald 14y ago
    I wrote something emotionally charged on HN a while back. I honestly don't remember what I wrote, but I remember that another contributor replied something along the lines of "That metaphor/phrase/word sucks all the oxygen out of the discussion."
  - anigbrowl 14y ago
    it seems ridiculous because no sane person alive supports those things I wish that were true.
colmvp 14y ago
Well it depends. Your argument about too few white players is a little misleading. Lots of white athletes go into other professional sports (football, baseball, hockey, soccer). On the flipside, it's pretty hard for Latin American, African American, and Asian Americans to be full-time actors as most American shows/movies cast Caucasian Americans. Doesn't matter how good an actor the individual is if they are excluded purely because of their race.
- protomyth 14y ago
  I had a buddy (Native American) who spent a lot of his acting career playing VC. Probably didn't make Asian Americans too happy.
  - aptwebapps 14y ago
    You meant Viet Cong, right? I spent quite a while trying to figure out how venture capitalists fit into that.
    - protomyth 14y ago
      yep - forgot the audience
- guylhem 14y ago
  that is a real problem however, and sometime made worse by the instance of the public that the actor ethnicity matches the character. That's stupid, considering most of the traditional stories have very few non whites (ok, there's Othello, but that's a bit short!) It's not just racism - more like a weird expectation that's hard to understand. I remember reading something (about Rhianna IIRC) not being black enough to portrait some civil rights leader. WTF??? We live in a diverse society. I couldn't care less whether the actor of ethnicity A should be supposed to play a character I know or suppose to be of ethnicity B - as long as he's good, who cares? It might even make a better story (ex: Romeo must Die vs Romeo & Juliet)
physcab 14y ago
> Is there white resentment about having too few white players in the NBA? This is like saying is there black resentment for lower graduation or employment rates. There's quite a bit of evidence that the stereotype that white men can't play basketball significantly reduces ther chance at succeeding at the professional level. If the resentment is there, it manifests itself at a subconscious level that no one, not even the "victim" is aware of.

by guylhem 14y ago

phaus 14y ago

I don't blame my not being in the NBA on the fact that I am white. I blame it on the fact that I'm short and I suck at basketball.

dasil003 14y ago

That quote reminds me of Mitch Hedberg's color joke: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=El65C0u_J3U http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=El65C0u_J3U

Anechoic 14y ago

Profits are what matters No, opportunity is what matters. "Underrepresentation does not equal racism" is true but it may (and I stress "may") be an indicator of disparate impact, and so underrepresentation shouldn't be dismissed. Paul Judge worked his way to the top, and I'm happy for him. That doesn't mean that the only reason other folks haven't (of any race/gender/background) is because they didn't work hard enough.

majormajor 14y ago

So the last line made me think: why do I hate the idea of the All-American Basketball Alliance[1], but support programs to increase diversity in software? But it's not a contradiction: I have seen nothing to lead me to believe that a talented player of any race will not get a fair chance in the NBA. It's all about winning, but the opportunity is there for everyone. So isn't SV all about winning too? Yes, it is—but we know a lot less about what leads to winning. There are no draft combines where everyone gets show what they can do. Nobody writes code competitively directly against other programmers on TV to prove they can produce at a high level. Companies play it by ear. The NBA knows how to evaluate talent. We don't. Here's a fun example: "PayPal once rejected a candidate who aced all the engineering tests because for fun, the guy said that he liked to play hoops. That single sentence lost him the job. No PayPal people would ever have used the world “hoops.” Probably no one even knew how to play “hoops.” Basketball would be bad enough. But “hoops?” That guy clearly wouldn’t have fit in. He’d have had to explain to the team why he was going to go play hoops on a Thursday night. And no one would have understood him."[2] Welp, guess I wouldn't have been able to get hired at PayPal. Not only do I like to play basketball, I've said "shooting hoops" a lot. You're going to turn down someone who aced your tests because of a hobby and the phrase he used to describe it? You really think that's the secret to success? You're flying by the seat of your pants in a world without good metrics and you don't know which things you did contributed to your success and which things didn't. You're actively discouraging diversity of culture (which is not directly the same thing as diversity of gender/race, but it makes it a lot harder to have the latter). And it's that still-sometimes-present active discouragement of diversity that I find frustrating about many parts of the programmer community. [1] a basketball league venture in the southern US that required players be white, that I believe folded quickly a couple of years ago [2] http://blakemasters.tumblr.com/post/21437840885/peter-thiels-cs183-startup-class-5-notes-essay http://blakemasters.tumblr.com/post/21437840885/peter-thiels...

guylhem 14y ago
IMHO, it may be a contradiction - there is no need for any specific program to encourage some specific group (even if one is a member of a given group, and could take advantage of the program for profit in the short run, because one don't get better in the long run by having it easier it the short run) I can't say anything about paypal - I wasn't there, and I don't like to pass judgements. But if they indeed were that dumb not to hire a good candidate only for the sports he plays, it's no wonder their product sucks more an more. Personally, I'm eagerly waiting for a competitor until bitcoin gets more momentum. BTW one thing I'd like to say - the opportunity in coding is there for everyone - it's even more open than the NBA because the judge is the market, and with the current technology everyone can easily start a tech company and compete globally. It's a pure and perfect competition. There's no need to be hired be a company - you create your company and show your product to the market. If it works, if it does what people need, you will get money.
- Anechoic 14y ago
  it's even more open than the NBA because the judge is the market Interesting, I have the exact opposite viewpoint - I can see the result of a software project, but I have very little insight into the contributions behind the scenes. In sports, I (and the rest of the world) can see the contributions of the atheltes and judge merit for ourselves. For example, I know the new iOS maps have problems, but (aside from press leaks) I don't have a lot of insight into who did what. On the other hand, I know from watching Knicks games last season that Jeremy Lin was the real deal. I know the result of the 2012 Super Bowl (Giants beat Patriots) and I also saw the contribution of the team members (for example, Tom Brady throwing a perfect pass to Wes Welker at he end of the game that Welker dropped). I've always see athletics as the closest ideal to a meritocracy that we have in our society.
  - guylhem 14y ago
    We do have opposite viewpoints because I see the one man company or consultant as the closest ideal to a meritocracy. But still +1'ing for this very interesting opinion - because you're right, in a company which more than 1 employee it's hard to judge the individual performance.

raganwald 14y ago

> "Underrepresentation does not equal racism" is also a great idea to cite - who cares about one's representation? It does not 'equal' racism, but then again I don't want to even use the word "racism" in a discussion unless I'm 100% confident everybody agrees on the definition. All too often in discussions like this, I encounter people who have their own pet definitions for the meaning of words like "equality" and "freedom" and "racism/racist." Now I'm guessing you are posting a rhetorical question, but I'll answer it as if you have an open mind and want to hear from people with a diversity of viewpoints. I don't measure results by representation, but I care deeply about removing obstacles to equal representation > Profits are what matters To you. Not to me. Or at least, not more than equality of opportunity. http://raganwald.posterous.com/the-keep http://raganwald.posterous.com/the-keep

drumdance 14y ago
I think "racism" is a really toxic word. Just hearing the word, I think of Klan rallies, Bull Connor with firehoses, lynch mobs etc. So when somebody accuses some one else of racism, it seems ridiculous because no sane person alive supports those things. And if you are called a racist, it's natural to get defensive. The words "prejudice" and "bias," however, are not nearly as emotionally charged, and it's possible to interrogate the situation more rationally. He gives the example of Arrington not knowing any black entrepreneurs. I highly doubt it's because he's a member of the KKK. However, it's extremely possible that he has unconscious biases that make it less likely he will meet or remember black entrepreneurs. If you accept that hypothesis for a moment, you can start brainstorming solutions. But if you just say he's a racist, the only solution is to stop hating people of color. What?!
- raganwald 14y ago
  I wrote something emotionally charged on HN a while back. I honestly don't remember what I wrote, but I remember that another contributor replied something along the lines of "That metaphor/phrase/word sucks all the oxygen out of the discussion."
- anigbrowl 14y ago
  it seems ridiculous because no sane person alive supports those things I wish that were true.

colmvp 14y ago

Well it depends. Your argument about too few white players is a little misleading. Lots of white athletes go into other professional sports (football, baseball, hockey, soccer). On the flipside, it's pretty hard for Latin American, African American, and Asian Americans to be full-time actors as most American shows/movies cast Caucasian Americans. Doesn't matter how good an actor the individual is if they are excluded purely because of their race.

protomyth 14y ago
I had a buddy (Native American) who spent a lot of his acting career playing VC. Probably didn't make Asian Americans too happy.
- aptwebapps 14y ago
  You meant Viet Cong, right? I spent quite a while trying to figure out how venture capitalists fit into that.
  - protomyth 14y ago
    yep - forgot the audience
guylhem 14y ago
that is a real problem however, and sometime made worse by the instance of the public that the actor ethnicity matches the character. That's stupid, considering most of the traditional stories have very few non whites (ok, there's Othello, but that's a bit short!) It's not just racism - more like a weird expectation that's hard to understand. I remember reading something (about Rhianna IIRC) not being black enough to portrait some civil rights leader. WTF??? We live in a diverse society. I couldn't care less whether the actor of ethnicity A should be supposed to play a character I know or suppose to be of ethnicity B - as long as he's good, who cares? It might even make a better story (ex: Romeo must Die vs Romeo & Juliet)

physcab 14y ago

> Is there white resentment about having too few white players in the NBA? This is like saying is there black resentment for lower graduation or employment rates. There's quite a bit of evidence that the stereotype that white men can't play basketball significantly reduces ther chance at succeeding at the professional level. If the resentment is there, it manifests itself at a subconscious level that no one, not even the "victim" is aware of.