4 ms·

Correct, the term "pronatalists" is in scare-quotes, suggesting that their belief/concern is fake.

by scott_w 7mo ago

palmotea 7mo ago
> Correct, the term "pronatalists" is in scare-quotes, suggesting that their belief/concern is fake. Or it's genuine, but almost completely trumped by other concerns, which I think is the more psychologically plausible explanation than conscious deception. They only pursue pronatalism without contradicting their other priorities, which makes their actions ineffective. Or their belief is twisted: they're pronatalists, but not pro your natalism (e.g. they're really only interested in a master-race of SV founders reproducing).
tootie 7mo ago
Pronatalists are outwardly concerned with birth rates while simultaneously railing against immigration while simultaneously begging for more H1-Bs. The implication is really "we need more white babies" but always taking a back seat to "I need more money".
- palmotea 7mo ago
  > Pronatalists are outwardly concerned with birth rates while simultaneously railing against immigration while simultaneously begging for more H1-Bs. The implication is really "we need more white babies"... No, and I think that's a slander. If you look at the numbers, birth rates are falling everywhere. There's no fecund area pumping out babies at a rate to use immigration to solve the labor component of the birthrate problem. And even the most fecund area may drop to sub-replacement rate in a generation or two, if the follow the patterns of everywhere else. It really is a global problem. And the progressive immigration solution is kind of imperialist: exporting problems from rich countries to poorer ones, who are even less equipped to deal with them (e.g. "let's export our trash to Africa and plunder its youth").
  - tootie 7mo ago
    I mean Elon Musk is not really subtle about his white supremacy and how it dovetails with his calls for more babies. I don't think he'd even be upset by reading this. I'm well aware that birth rates are falling in the rich world. It's a universal problem across all wealthy countries regardless of immigration or social policy. I'm also not certain that this is some kind of urgent issue we need to do anything about. It seems like a natural cycle. And maybe we're better off letting the global population taper off. I think you're also off base on immigration policy but that's a separate topic.
    - palmotea 7mo ago
      > I'm well aware that birth rates are falling in the rich world. It's a universal problem across all wealthy countries regardless of immigration or social policy. It's not just the "rich world". China is deeply below replacement rate (for unique reasons), and even India has dropped below replacement rate (https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/rural-indias-total-fertility-rate-dips-to-replacement-rate/articleshow/123706269.cms https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/rural-indias-total...). Those aren't wealthy countries. > I'm also not certain that this is some kind of urgent issue we need to do anything about. It seems like a natural cycle. And maybe we're better off letting the global population taper off. Denial is certainty a response people can have to difficult or ideologically inconvenient problems. > I think you're also off base on immigration policy but that's a separate topic. How so? Liberals/progressives can be parochial and ignore of misunderstand the world outside their borders, falling back to their own little dogmas. Today, the math just doesn't work out for immigration being the solution for declining birthrates globally. And it'll just get worse as sub-Saharan Africa follows the trends of other regions.
      - tootie 7mo ago
        I don't think anyone is saying immigration is a solution to falling fertility rates. I was pointing to the irony/hypocrisy of the people worried about there being too few Americans also worrying there are too many immigrants. And while I'm aware there are some negatives to falling population, there are also positives and the entire situation is manageable without resorting to exotic solutions. I still don't understand why it's urgent. And while I'm sure most everybody can have misapprehensions about the world beyond their observation, I'd reckon that liberals are far less misguided than conservatives and also ask why the hell is that relevant? We're talking about people who are coming here. I don't really need to know what's happening Haiti beyond knowing there are people who desperately prefer to live in the US and are seemingly adjusting very well and definitely not eating anyone's cats.

Correct, the term "pronatalists" is in scare-quotes, suggesting that their belief/concern is fake.

by scott_w 7mo ago

Correct, the term "pronatalists" is in scare-quotes, suggesting that their belief/concern is fake.

> Correct, the term "pronatalists" is in scare-quotes, suggesting that their belief/concern is fake. Or it's genuine, but almost completely trumped by other concerns, which I think is the more psychologically plausible explanation than conscious deception. They only pursue pronatalism without contradicting their other priorities, which makes their actions ineffective. Or their belief is twisted: they're pronatalists, but not pro your natalism (e.g. they're really only interested in a master-race of SV founders reproducing).

tootie 7mo ago

Pronatalists are outwardly concerned with birth rates while simultaneously railing against immigration while simultaneously begging for more H1-Bs. The implication is really "we need more white babies" but always taking a back seat to "I need more money".

palmotea 7mo ago
> Pronatalists are outwardly concerned with birth rates while simultaneously railing against immigration while simultaneously begging for more H1-Bs. The implication is really "we need more white babies"... No, and I think that's a slander. If you look at the numbers, birth rates are falling everywhere. There's no fecund area pumping out babies at a rate to use immigration to solve the labor component of the birthrate problem. And even the most fecund area may drop to sub-replacement rate in a generation or two, if the follow the patterns of everywhere else. It really is a global problem. And the progressive immigration solution is kind of imperialist: exporting problems from rich countries to poorer ones, who are even less equipped to deal with them (e.g. "let's export our trash to Africa and plunder its youth").
- tootie 7mo ago
  I mean Elon Musk is not really subtle about his white supremacy and how it dovetails with his calls for more babies. I don't think he'd even be upset by reading this. I'm well aware that birth rates are falling in the rich world. It's a universal problem across all wealthy countries regardless of immigration or social policy. I'm also not certain that this is some kind of urgent issue we need to do anything about. It seems like a natural cycle. And maybe we're better off letting the global population taper off. I think you're also off base on immigration policy but that's a separate topic.
  - palmotea 7mo ago
    > I'm well aware that birth rates are falling in the rich world. It's a universal problem across all wealthy countries regardless of immigration or social policy. It's not just the "rich world". China is deeply below replacement rate (for unique reasons), and even India has dropped below replacement rate (https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/rural-indias-total-fertility-rate-dips-to-replacement-rate/articleshow/123706269.cms https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/rural-indias-total...). Those aren't wealthy countries. > I'm also not certain that this is some kind of urgent issue we need to do anything about. It seems like a natural cycle. And maybe we're better off letting the global population taper off. Denial is certainty a response people can have to difficult or ideologically inconvenient problems. > I think you're also off base on immigration policy but that's a separate topic. How so? Liberals/progressives can be parochial and ignore of misunderstand the world outside their borders, falling back to their own little dogmas. Today, the math just doesn't work out for immigration being the solution for declining birthrates globally. And it'll just get worse as sub-Saharan Africa follows the trends of other regions.
    - tootie 7mo ago
      I don't think anyone is saying immigration is a solution to falling fertility rates. I was pointing to the irony/hypocrisy of the people worried about there being too few Americans also worrying there are too many immigrants. And while I'm aware there are some negatives to falling population, there are also positives and the entire situation is manageable without resorting to exotic solutions. I still don't understand why it's urgent. And while I'm sure most everybody can have misapprehensions about the world beyond their observation, I'd reckon that liberals are far less misguided than conservatives and also ask why the hell is that relevant? We're talking about people who are coming here. I don't really need to know what's happening Haiti beyond knowing there are people who desperately prefer to live in the US and are seemingly adjusting very well and definitely not eating anyone's cats.