4 ms·

> Return-to-office is functionally anti-natalist policy beloved by “pronatalists”. > ... > The loudest “pronatalists” (Musk, Andreessen) spent two years killi

> Return-to-office is functionally anti-natalist policy beloved by “pronatalists”. > ... > The loudest “pronatalists” (Musk, Andreessen) spent two years killing workplace flexibility while funding nearly a billion in elite fertility tech. So the message here is SV pronatalists aren't actually pronatalists, because pronatalism is way down on their list of priorities, especially bar below the priority of "be an imperious boss." Capitalism seems to like to choke everything that's not maximum capitalism, reproduction in this case. It has no future unless humanity can be replaced by capitalist machines, but fortunately we've got top men working on that. Imagine this for a sci-fi story: a dead world, its dominant technological species extinct, but it's mindless LLM-powered machines live on, mining raw materials and trading on a stock market.

scott_w 8mo ago
Correct, the term "pronatalists" is in scare-quotes, suggesting that their belief/concern is fake.
- palmotea 8mo ago
  > Correct, the term "pronatalists" is in scare-quotes, suggesting that their belief/concern is fake. Or it's genuine, but almost completely trumped by other concerns, which I think is the more psychologically plausible explanation than conscious deception. They only pursue pronatalism without contradicting their other priorities, which makes their actions ineffective. Or their belief is twisted: they're pronatalists, but not pro your natalism (e.g. they're really only interested in a master-race of SV founders reproducing).
- tootie 8mo ago
  Pronatalists are outwardly concerned with birth rates while simultaneously railing against immigration while simultaneously begging for more H1-Bs. The implication is really "we need more white babies" but always taking a back seat to "I need more money".
  - palmotea 8mo ago
    > Pronatalists are outwardly concerned with birth rates while simultaneously railing against immigration while simultaneously begging for more H1-Bs. The implication is really "we need more white babies"... No, and I think that's a slander. If you look at the numbers, birth rates are falling everywhere. There's no fecund area pumping out babies at a rate to use immigration to solve the labor component of the birthrate problem. And even the most fecund area may drop to sub-replacement rate in a generation or two, if the follow the patterns of everywhere else. It really is a global problem. And the progressive immigration solution is kind of imperialist: exporting problems from rich countries to poorer ones, who are even less equipped to deal with them (e.g. "let's export our trash to Africa and plunder its youth").
    - tootie 8mo ago
      I mean Elon Musk is not really subtle about his white supremacy and how it dovetails with his calls for more babies. I don't think he'd even be upset by reading this. I'm well aware that birth rates are falling in the rich world. It's a universal problem across all wealthy countries regardless of immigration or social policy. I'm also not certain that this is some kind of urgent issue we need to do anything about. It seems like a natural cycle. And maybe we're better off letting the global population taper off. I think you're also off base on immigration policy but that's a separate topic.
      - palmotea 8mo ago
        > I'm well aware that birth rates are falling in the rich world. It's a universal problem across all wealthy countries regardless of immigration or social policy. It's not just the "rich world". China is deeply below replacement rate (for unique reasons), and even India has dropped below replacement rate (https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/rural-indias-total-fertility-rate-dips-to-replacement-rate/articleshow/123706269.cms https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/rural-indias-total...). Those aren't wealthy countries. > I'm also not certain that this is some kind of urgent issue we need to do anything about. It seems like a natural cycle. And maybe we're better off letting the global population taper off. Denial is certainty a response people can have to difficult or ideologically inconvenient problems. > I think you're also off base on immigration policy but that's a separate topic. How so? Liberals/progressives can be parochial and ignore of misunderstand the world outside their borders, falling back to their own little dogmas. Today, the math just doesn't work out for immigration being the solution for declining birthrates globally. And it'll just get worse as sub-Saharan Africa follows the trends of other regions.
dfxm12 8mo ago
On the topic of capitalism, one can't make money from wfh policies like one can from the "fertility tech" one funds. It's synergy, you see.

scott_w 8mo ago

Correct, the term "pronatalists" is in scare-quotes, suggesting that their belief/concern is fake.

palmotea 8mo ago
> Correct, the term "pronatalists" is in scare-quotes, suggesting that their belief/concern is fake. Or it's genuine, but almost completely trumped by other concerns, which I think is the more psychologically plausible explanation than conscious deception. They only pursue pronatalism without contradicting their other priorities, which makes their actions ineffective. Or their belief is twisted: they're pronatalists, but not pro your natalism (e.g. they're really only interested in a master-race of SV founders reproducing).
tootie 8mo ago
Pronatalists are outwardly concerned with birth rates while simultaneously railing against immigration while simultaneously begging for more H1-Bs. The implication is really "we need more white babies" but always taking a back seat to "I need more money".
- palmotea 8mo ago
  > Pronatalists are outwardly concerned with birth rates while simultaneously railing against immigration while simultaneously begging for more H1-Bs. The implication is really "we need more white babies"... No, and I think that's a slander. If you look at the numbers, birth rates are falling everywhere. There's no fecund area pumping out babies at a rate to use immigration to solve the labor component of the birthrate problem. And even the most fecund area may drop to sub-replacement rate in a generation or two, if the follow the patterns of everywhere else. It really is a global problem. And the progressive immigration solution is kind of imperialist: exporting problems from rich countries to poorer ones, who are even less equipped to deal with them (e.g. "let's export our trash to Africa and plunder its youth").
  - tootie 8mo ago
    I mean Elon Musk is not really subtle about his white supremacy and how it dovetails with his calls for more babies. I don't think he'd even be upset by reading this. I'm well aware that birth rates are falling in the rich world. It's a universal problem across all wealthy countries regardless of immigration or social policy. I'm also not certain that this is some kind of urgent issue we need to do anything about. It seems like a natural cycle. And maybe we're better off letting the global population taper off. I think you're also off base on immigration policy but that's a separate topic.
    - palmotea 8mo ago
      > I'm well aware that birth rates are falling in the rich world. It's a universal problem across all wealthy countries regardless of immigration or social policy. It's not just the "rich world". China is deeply below replacement rate (for unique reasons), and even India has dropped below replacement rate (https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/rural-indias-total-fertility-rate-dips-to-replacement-rate/articleshow/123706269.cms https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/rural-indias-total...). Those aren't wealthy countries. > I'm also not certain that this is some kind of urgent issue we need to do anything about. It seems like a natural cycle. And maybe we're better off letting the global population taper off. Denial is certainty a response people can have to difficult or ideologically inconvenient problems. > I think you're also off base on immigration policy but that's a separate topic. How so? Liberals/progressives can be parochial and ignore of misunderstand the world outside their borders, falling back to their own little dogmas. Today, the math just doesn't work out for immigration being the solution for declining birthrates globally. And it'll just get worse as sub-Saharan Africa follows the trends of other regions.

dfxm12 8mo ago

On the topic of capitalism, one can't make money from wfh policies like one can from the "fertility tech" one funds. It's synergy, you see.