5 ms·

The one thing I can't find a quick is a definition for "pronatalist." The obvious definition without the scare quotes is "those in favor of families having chil

The one thing I can't find a quick is a definition for "pronatalist." The obvious definition without the scare quotes is "those in favor of families having children." But we have scare quotes and references to men who definitely desire extreme levels of control over others. It looks like "pronatalist" policy is "say you support increased birth rates while simultaneously being against any economic policy that would support families." Which looks like the conservative playbook for decades. "Yes, more people in need, with limited education, so we can scare them into supporting more of the same." Do I have that right? Or did I miss some nuance?

hardlianotion 7mo ago
I think the quotes is to say that these people who say that they are pronatalist have revealed preferences that indicate that it is not a serious concern for them.
bhouston 7mo ago
There are a lot of flavors of "pro-natalist". For example Elon Musk is a "pro-natalist" but he seems to clear favor white Christian people and himself especially. Others are pro-natalist but have a general eugenics bent, rather than just white/Christian supremacy. And then others are pro-natalist in a more general sense, in that our culture in general should encourage at least rough replacement levels of fertility so that that we should avoid a population collapse.
- wahnfrieden 7mo ago
  Some seem to use it as cover for being predators. Musk exposed his genitals to an employee without their consent, in a confined space without ability to escape, for instance.
- graemep 7mo ago
  Christian? Musk says he is not religious. He has said he is a "cultural christian" - a description also used of themselves by a lot of people ranging from Richard Dawkins to Anders Breivik. https://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Society/2024/1218/elon-musk-cultural-christian-richard-dawkins https://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Society/2024/1218/elon-musk-cu...
  - ben_w 7mo ago
    That would still match "[favouring] white Christian people". Or at least that part matches the "Christian" part, the other stuff Musk associates with seems to suggest at least some racial (and not simply cultural) biases in his thinking, e.g. how he regards DEI as being a promotion of undeserving people rather than a way to give equal opportunities to deserving people who are demonstrably under-represented given their qualifications.
    - graemep 7mo ago
      On that basis Richard Dawkins matches the Christian part.
      - ben_w 7mo ago
        It is entirely unimportant how Richard Dawkins is categorised, isn't it? Last I checked, the "pro-natalist" part isn't there for Dawkins, so how other things modify a pro-natalist stance don't connect to anything.
        graemep 7mo ago
        I am suggesting that a definition of "Christian" that includes Richard Dawkins is flawed.
        ben_w 7mo ago
        You're the one who chose to combine Musk and Dawkins in the same group here with "cultural christian", that's absolutely a straw man if this is what you're doing. I mean, your own link up there has a sub-heading of "Everyone has their own definition". Especially when you're replying to "he seems to clear favor white Christian people and himself especially" rather than "is a Christian". Queen Victoria wasn't a feminist, neither.
        graemep 7mo ago
- delecti 7mo ago
  I don't think those groups are as distinct as you're implying, certainly not in the US. I think there is considerable overlap, in the form of people who believe in the "Great Replacement" conspiracy theory. Essentially "we need to make sure there are enough white babies so that white people can outbreed <insert preferred minority scapegoat>." That thought is inherently eugenicist because it implicitly holds that white people are "better" in some way. "Christian" is also often implicit in "white babies," especially in contrast to Muslim or Jewish people being a common choices of scapegoat.
  - ryandrake 7mo ago
    The Christian "Quiverfull"[1] movement embodies that "Out-Breeding The Others" idea. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quiverfull https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quiverfull
  - bhouston 7mo ago
    I guess I would like a distinction because I personally would like to avoid population collapse, thus I am pro-natalist in wanting a replacement level fertility, and I would prefer if that fertility was well distributed rather than highly concentrated in the most conservative religious folk. I do fear what will happen if we continue to shrink, it has to stop somewhere.
    - delecti 7mo ago
      That's why I specified the US, where the population is still growing, and the remnants/echoes of the baby boom aren't as stark. I don't think it looks like we're headed for population collapse, and if we are, it's far enough in the future to course correct pretty gently. I have less insight into the culture of natalists in countries like Japan or South Korea where their population pyramids are heavily inverted. I don't know what they're doing to address their age demographic issues, nor do I have any ideas for what they should do.
ForHackernews 7mo ago
As far as I can tell it's mostly these weirdos https://www.vice.com/en/article/the-elite-breeding-couple-are-terminally-online-redditors-whove-gone-viral-before/ https://www.vice.com/en/article/the-elite-breeding-couple-ar... "...they went on to become the faces of the pronatalist movement, and so far they’ve been given several long profiles for mainstream media outlets to share their pronatalist ideals. This week, it was the Telegraph. In January, it was the New York Post. Last year, it was Business Insider. As Business Insider put it, pronatalism—espoused by Elon Musk, for example—is about breeding supposedly “genetically superior” people. The Collinses have expressed in multiple profiles that certain traits like empathy and even political beliefs are genetically inherited, and so breeding among people who hold those beliefs will carry them forward. In an email to Motherboard, the Collinses disputed this characterization and described pronatalism as “a movement that urges individuals from low fertility cultures to have kids to preserve as much genetic and cultural diversity as possible.”
twodave 7mo ago
It isn’t political.
- estearum 7mo ago
  For a huge number of pronatalists it absolutely is. And/or religious, which often also boils down to being political.
  - twodave 7mo ago
    It isn’t exactly a red/blue issue is what I should have said. I thought given the parent I was replying to that was the implication anyway. You can make anything political, of course.
- jagged-chisel 7mo ago
  What isn't political? TFA? It certainly is. The term pronatalist? Maybe it shouldn't be, but TFA is a political commentary on the term. I'm just trying to understand how this word is being used. And all the answers thus far indicate that it does indeed encompass political beliefs.
  - klaff 7mo ago
    what is TFA?
    - atsaloli 7mo ago
      The "fine" article
      - jagged-chisel 7mo ago
        "featured" ;-)
- Analemma_ 7mo ago
  Well, there's a little two-step here where pronatalists will insist “it's not political” with one side of their mouth, and then invite Jack Posobeic to be the opening night headline speaker at NatalCon with the other.
d4mi3n 7mo ago
There’s important history and connotation behind pronatalist narratives—particularly with eugenics, xenophobia, and gender (in)equality. Vogue did a decent overview of this[1] and history is littered with all kinds of examples if you go looking. 1. https://www.vogue.com/article/dark-history-of-the-far-rights-natalism https://www.vogue.com/article/dark-history-of-the-far-rights...
showerst 7mo ago
Pronatalist also usually implies a racist/nationalist angle, some of the reason you want more births is because your people are genetically better than immigrants in some way. This isn't universal, but it's often true.
- showerst 7mo ago
  I think I phrased this poorly. Obviously nobody is genetically "better" than anyone else, but that's what many Pronatalists think.
Balgair 7mo ago
Its a a general term that a lot of people adhere to. It's just that those people tend to be about 2 standard deviations out on whatever normal distribution you're dealing with. Here in the US, you get a lot of these incel-y types with women control and breeding kinks. But in China, it's more the very hardcore commies worried about the future of the party in 30 years and maybe have one chubby grandchild. In Korea and Japan, you get a lot of Moonie types and that sort of folk. In the Middle East (huge, I know), these are the hardcore Muslim folks but with a family bent (think strange uncles without children themselves). South Americans here will be the turbo Catholic variety typically with a lot of kids already Generally, the person that is in the pro-natalist camp is generally a person that is conservative in their social ideas. They want yesterday to be like to day, and today to be like tomorrow. But, their individual ideologies and day-to-day-life are about as opposed to each other as can be and they may outright hate each other. Marx would have a field day with these people.
defrost 7mo ago
The author of the submitted content also wrote this: Yes, I am a pro-natalist - https://www.governance.fyi/p/yes-i-am-a-pro-natalist https://www.governance.fyi/p/yes-i-am-a-pro-natalist Like many <label>'s, the group isn't seen as homogenous from within regardless of how smooth and unfeatured they appear from outside.

hardlianotion 7mo ago

I think the quotes is to say that these people who say that they are pronatalist have revealed preferences that indicate that it is not a serious concern for them.

bhouston 7mo ago

There are a lot of flavors of "pro-natalist". For example Elon Musk is a "pro-natalist" but he seems to clear favor white Christian people and himself especially. Others are pro-natalist but have a general eugenics bent, rather than just white/Christian supremacy. And then others are pro-natalist in a more general sense, in that our culture in general should encourage at least rough replacement levels of fertility so that that we should avoid a population collapse.

wahnfrieden 7mo ago
Some seem to use it as cover for being predators. Musk exposed his genitals to an employee without their consent, in a confined space without ability to escape, for instance.
graemep 7mo ago
Christian? Musk says he is not religious. He has said he is a "cultural christian" - a description also used of themselves by a lot of people ranging from Richard Dawkins to Anders Breivik. https://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Society/2024/1218/elon-musk-cultural-christian-richard-dawkins https://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Society/2024/1218/elon-musk-cu...
- ben_w 7mo ago
  That would still match "[favouring] white Christian people". Or at least that part matches the "Christian" part, the other stuff Musk associates with seems to suggest at least some racial (and not simply cultural) biases in his thinking, e.g. how he regards DEI as being a promotion of undeserving people rather than a way to give equal opportunities to deserving people who are demonstrably under-represented given their qualifications.
  - graemep 7mo ago
    On that basis Richard Dawkins matches the Christian part.
    - ben_w 7mo ago
      It is entirely unimportant how Richard Dawkins is categorised, isn't it? Last I checked, the "pro-natalist" part isn't there for Dawkins, so how other things modify a pro-natalist stance don't connect to anything.
      - graemep 7mo ago
        I am suggesting that a definition of "Christian" that includes Richard Dawkins is flawed.
        ben_w 7mo ago
        You're the one who chose to combine Musk and Dawkins in the same group here with "cultural christian", that's absolutely a straw man if this is what you're doing. I mean, your own link up there has a sub-heading of "Everyone has their own definition". Especially when you're replying to "he seems to clear favor white Christian people and himself especially" rather than "is a Christian". Queen Victoria wasn't a feminist, neither.
        graemep 7mo ago
delecti 7mo ago
I don't think those groups are as distinct as you're implying, certainly not in the US. I think there is considerable overlap, in the form of people who believe in the "Great Replacement" conspiracy theory. Essentially "we need to make sure there are enough white babies so that white people can outbreed <insert preferred minority scapegoat>." That thought is inherently eugenicist because it implicitly holds that white people are "better" in some way. "Christian" is also often implicit in "white babies," especially in contrast to Muslim or Jewish people being a common choices of scapegoat.
- ryandrake 7mo ago
  The Christian "Quiverfull"[1] movement embodies that "Out-Breeding The Others" idea. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quiverfull https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quiverfull
- bhouston 7mo ago
  I guess I would like a distinction because I personally would like to avoid population collapse, thus I am pro-natalist in wanting a replacement level fertility, and I would prefer if that fertility was well distributed rather than highly concentrated in the most conservative religious folk. I do fear what will happen if we continue to shrink, it has to stop somewhere.
  - delecti 7mo ago
    That's why I specified the US, where the population is still growing, and the remnants/echoes of the baby boom aren't as stark. I don't think it looks like we're headed for population collapse, and if we are, it's far enough in the future to course correct pretty gently. I have less insight into the culture of natalists in countries like Japan or South Korea where their population pyramids are heavily inverted. I don't know what they're doing to address their age demographic issues, nor do I have any ideas for what they should do.

ForHackernews 7mo ago

As far as I can tell it's mostly these weirdos https://www.vice.com/en/article/the-elite-breeding-couple-are-terminally-online-redditors-whove-gone-viral-before/ https://www.vice.com/en/article/the-elite-breeding-couple-ar... "...they went on to become the faces of the pronatalist movement, and so far they’ve been given several long profiles for mainstream media outlets to share their pronatalist ideals. This week, it was the Telegraph. In January, it was the New York Post. Last year, it was Business Insider. As Business Insider put it, pronatalism—espoused by Elon Musk, for example—is about breeding supposedly “genetically superior” people. The Collinses have expressed in multiple profiles that certain traits like empathy and even political beliefs are genetically inherited, and so breeding among people who hold those beliefs will carry them forward. In an email to Motherboard, the Collinses disputed this characterization and described pronatalism as “a movement that urges individuals from low fertility cultures to have kids to preserve as much genetic and cultural diversity as possible.”

twodave 7mo ago

It isn’t political.

estearum 7mo ago
For a huge number of pronatalists it absolutely is. And/or religious, which often also boils down to being political.
- twodave 7mo ago
  It isn’t exactly a red/blue issue is what I should have said. I thought given the parent I was replying to that was the implication anyway. You can make anything political, of course.
jagged-chisel 7mo ago
What isn't political? TFA? It certainly is. The term pronatalist? Maybe it shouldn't be, but TFA is a political commentary on the term. I'm just trying to understand how this word is being used. And all the answers thus far indicate that it does indeed encompass political beliefs.
- klaff 7mo ago
  what is TFA?
  - atsaloli 7mo ago
    The "fine" article
    - jagged-chisel 7mo ago
      "featured" ;-)
Analemma_ 7mo ago
Well, there's a little two-step here where pronatalists will insist “it's not political” with one side of their mouth, and then invite Jack Posobeic to be the opening night headline speaker at NatalCon with the other.

d4mi3n 7mo ago

There’s important history and connotation behind pronatalist narratives—particularly with eugenics, xenophobia, and gender (in)equality. Vogue did a decent overview of this[1] and history is littered with all kinds of examples if you go looking. 1. https://www.vogue.com/article/dark-history-of-the-far-rights-natalism https://www.vogue.com/article/dark-history-of-the-far-rights...

showerst 7mo ago

Pronatalist also usually implies a racist/nationalist angle, some of the reason you want more births is because your people are genetically better than immigrants in some way. This isn't universal, but it's often true.

showerst 7mo ago
I think I phrased this poorly. Obviously nobody is genetically "better" than anyone else, but that's what many Pronatalists think.

Balgair 7mo ago

Its a a general term that a lot of people adhere to. It's just that those people tend to be about 2 standard deviations out on whatever normal distribution you're dealing with. Here in the US, you get a lot of these incel-y types with women control and breeding kinks. But in China, it's more the very hardcore commies worried about the future of the party in 30 years and maybe have one chubby grandchild. In Korea and Japan, you get a lot of Moonie types and that sort of folk. In the Middle East (huge, I know), these are the hardcore Muslim folks but with a family bent (think strange uncles without children themselves). South Americans here will be the turbo Catholic variety typically with a lot of kids already Generally, the person that is in the pro-natalist camp is generally a person that is conservative in their social ideas. They want yesterday to be like to day, and today to be like tomorrow. But, their individual ideologies and day-to-day-life are about as opposed to each other as can be and they may outright hate each other. Marx would have a field day with these people.

defrost 7mo ago

The author of the submitted content also wrote this: Yes, I am a pro-natalist - https://www.governance.fyi/p/yes-i-am-a-pro-natalist https://www.governance.fyi/p/yes-i-am-a-pro-natalist Like many <label>'s, the group isn't seen as homogenous from within regardless of how smooth and unfeatured they appear from outside.