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How about when you pay USD$10,000 for a niche software package with a crappy USB hardware dongle with drivers that only work on Windows XP, despite the applicat

How about when you pay USD$10,000 for a niche software package with a crappy USB hardware dongle with drivers that only work on Windows XP, despite the application itself working just fine under Windows 7 64-bit? When I asked the vendor, I was told I could pay another $10,000 so I could buy a new version of the software that just so happened to have a newer DRM dongle. At that point you really have four options: 1.) Hope someone else pirated it. 2.) Kill a few evenings cracking the application with IDA Pro. 3.) Forever remain on Windows XP on a graphics workstation, unable to use the entirety of RAM installed, or some horrible dual-boot situation isolating you from the rest of your tools. 4.) Pay ANOTHER $10,000. Seriously, you have no position to tell anyone that there's 'no justification'. It's obvious you're missing real world experience here. I picked #2, myself, but I'd have rather saved time and picked #1 if it had already been done.

bpatrianakos 14y ago
I have the real world experience and I stand by my position. It does suck and I can empathize and of course I can understand why you'd pirate the software but are you really going to try to tell me that it's not wrong? Can you honestly say that not paying is okay because the price is too high and you don't agree with the reasons why you can't run your dongle on a new OS? That's what it comes down to in the end. It's about not wanting to pay and disagreeing with the price. The fact that you know the dongle should work on your machine doesn't put you in a position to know why they want you to upgrade. Anyone in that situation would have a knee-jerk reaction and jump to thinking its a corporate conspiracy and they're just gouging people. That's plausible. Or maybe there's a legit reason that you don't know. But in either case, no matter how ridiculous the experience is (and I grant you that the example you provide is very unreasonable) it still doesn't change the fact that someone created something of value to you, you want to use it above all alternatives, and you choose to pirate it which is wrong. Suppose I go to the Apple store and I want a new MacBook Air. I have to wait in line for an hour. Then when I get into the store they've upped the price by $10k. Then, even after swallowing my frustration, I look to pay but all the checkout guys are busy. So I decide this is fucked up and just walk out with it. You'd agree that was a messed up situation but it's not okay for me to walk out of a store without paying. The point is something I can't fathom anyone disagreeing with. There's a product. It has a price. If you want it you have to buy it. If you take it without paying that is wrong. How can you disagree with that?
- neverm0re 14y ago
  Yes, I can clearly and with good conscious say that it is 100% a-ok to break the lock or take a cracked copy of software you already paid $10,000 for to operate with a $180,000 system if the vendor is going to gouge you over a trivial issue. I'm really sorry that you live in a fantasy world sponsored by the MPAA and RIAA. I've already paid my pound of flesh to get my work done, intentionally not backporting a dongle driver to force upgrades at $10k a whack is the stuff slime is made of. They do this because they know very well there are not many/any alternative vendors for this equipment, which happens to be an exotic motion capture rig absolutely critical to my work. Fuck that and fuck anyone who tells me I have to grin and bear it or otherwise just wave my hands and go without all because otherwise I might offend their sensibilities over how I might see their software. Personally, I don't care about your software. It hasn't done anything slimy to me yet. You're safe.
  - yb66 14y ago
    Firstly, 2 wrongs do not make a right (your first logically fallacy is a tu-quoque) Second, you used ad hominem directly (implying they're living in a fantasy world) and an appeal to the audience (bringing up MPAA etc) - another set of even worse logical fallicies. You may as well just call someone a cocksucker for all the intellectual weight this kind of argument carries, at least then you're not hiding behind some kind of faux intellect and moral superiority given to you by political choices. Thirdly, if you have the ability to crack their security change their drivers and you don't like the price, you are free to create your own commercial version (or open source it). They did, and apparently they're doing quite well out of it. Fourth, if you are able to pay $180,000 for a system and then $10,000 for the initial dongle, and you haven't budgeted for seemingly expensive extras (yet not in the context of a $180k system) then you've no right to criticise anyone else for their poor work practices. Pay the money and learn how to budget. What you did (or advocate, I'm not sure how much I believe you) was steal from someone, regardless of their morality or character, and your argument to justify it is incredibly weak. If you can make it in a non-fallacious way then at least it will carry some weight in that regard, I'd invite you to try.
  - bpatrianakos 14y ago
protomyth 14y ago
5) pick a new software vendor and tell people why There is no justification short of "needed to save someone's life" for stealing. Your piracy hurts the "good" vendors in the same vertical because they aren't getting funded.
- neverm0re 14y ago
  "Re-elect Governor Marley: When there's only one candidate, there's only one choice!"
- Karunamon 14y ago
  Good thing nobody is stealing.
- yusefnapora 14y ago
  So modifying software you've purchased is stealing now? I read the situation as him fixing another company's bug because they refused to do so.
  - protomyth 14y ago
    If you paid for it, defeating the dongle isn't something I think of as stealing. If you pay, go for it. I read it as getting the new version for free, that is a different kettle of fish.

bpatrianakos 14y ago

I have the real world experience and I stand by my position. It does suck and I can empathize and of course I can understand why you'd pirate the software but are you really going to try to tell me that it's not wrong? Can you honestly say that not paying is okay because the price is too high and you don't agree with the reasons why you can't run your dongle on a new OS? That's what it comes down to in the end. It's about not wanting to pay and disagreeing with the price. The fact that you know the dongle should work on your machine doesn't put you in a position to know why they want you to upgrade. Anyone in that situation would have a knee-jerk reaction and jump to thinking its a corporate conspiracy and they're just gouging people. That's plausible. Or maybe there's a legit reason that you don't know. But in either case, no matter how ridiculous the experience is (and I grant you that the example you provide is very unreasonable) it still doesn't change the fact that someone created something of value to you, you want to use it above all alternatives, and you choose to pirate it which is wrong. Suppose I go to the Apple store and I want a new MacBook Air. I have to wait in line for an hour. Then when I get into the store they've upped the price by $10k. Then, even after swallowing my frustration, I look to pay but all the checkout guys are busy. So I decide this is fucked up and just walk out with it. You'd agree that was a messed up situation but it's not okay for me to walk out of a store without paying. The point is something I can't fathom anyone disagreeing with. There's a product. It has a price. If you want it you have to buy it. If you take it without paying that is wrong. How can you disagree with that?

neverm0re 14y ago
Yes, I can clearly and with good conscious say that it is 100% a-ok to break the lock or take a cracked copy of software you already paid $10,000 for to operate with a $180,000 system if the vendor is going to gouge you over a trivial issue. I'm really sorry that you live in a fantasy world sponsored by the MPAA and RIAA. I've already paid my pound of flesh to get my work done, intentionally not backporting a dongle driver to force upgrades at $10k a whack is the stuff slime is made of. They do this because they know very well there are not many/any alternative vendors for this equipment, which happens to be an exotic motion capture rig absolutely critical to my work. Fuck that and fuck anyone who tells me I have to grin and bear it or otherwise just wave my hands and go without all because otherwise I might offend their sensibilities over how I might see their software. Personally, I don't care about your software. It hasn't done anything slimy to me yet. You're safe.
- yb66 14y ago
  Firstly, 2 wrongs do not make a right (your first logically fallacy is a tu-quoque) Second, you used ad hominem directly (implying they're living in a fantasy world) and an appeal to the audience (bringing up MPAA etc) - another set of even worse logical fallicies. You may as well just call someone a cocksucker for all the intellectual weight this kind of argument carries, at least then you're not hiding behind some kind of faux intellect and moral superiority given to you by political choices. Thirdly, if you have the ability to crack their security change their drivers and you don't like the price, you are free to create your own commercial version (or open source it). They did, and apparently they're doing quite well out of it. Fourth, if you are able to pay $180,000 for a system and then $10,000 for the initial dongle, and you haven't budgeted for seemingly expensive extras (yet not in the context of a $180k system) then you've no right to criticise anyone else for their poor work practices. Pay the money and learn how to budget. What you did (or advocate, I'm not sure how much I believe you) was steal from someone, regardless of their morality or character, and your argument to justify it is incredibly weak. If you can make it in a non-fallacious way then at least it will carry some weight in that regard, I'd invite you to try.
- bpatrianakos 14y ago

protomyth 14y ago

5) pick a new software vendor and tell people why There is no justification short of "needed to save someone's life" for stealing. Your piracy hurts the "good" vendors in the same vertical because they aren't getting funded.

neverm0re 14y ago
"Re-elect Governor Marley: When there's only one candidate, there's only one choice!"
Karunamon 14y ago
Good thing nobody is stealing.
yusefnapora 14y ago
So modifying software you've purchased is stealing now? I read the situation as him fixing another company's bug because they refused to do so.
- protomyth 14y ago
  If you paid for it, defeating the dongle isn't something I think of as stealing. If you pay, go for it. I read it as getting the new version for free, that is a different kettle of fish.