7 ms·

Google Casts a Big Shadow on Smaller Web Sites

75 points by iProject 14y ago

SparrowOS 14y ago
You want access to God? God says... 24:15 The eye also of the adulterer waiteth for the twilight, saying, No eye shall see me: and disguiseth his face. 24:16 In the dark they dig through houses, which they had marked for themselves in the daytime: they know not the light. 24:17 For the morning is to them even as the shadow of death: if one know them, they are in the terrors of the shadow of death. 24:18 He is swift as the waters; their portion is cursed in the earth: he beholdeth not the way of the vineyards. 24:19 Drought and heat consume the snow waters: so doth the grave those which have sinned. 24:20 The womb shall forget him; the worm shall feed sweetly on him; he shall be no more remembered; and wickedness shall be broken as a tree.
TomGullen 14y ago
What's the complaint here? Google makes changes that sometimes negatively impact someone's business? As long as Google's algorithm is trending in the correct direction (that is towards better quality results) then these complaints are just growing pains and I don't see much of a problem. Some startups are criticised for simply being features of a chosen platform. Once they get big enough, the platform in control will simply add the feature and eliminate the startup. I'm unfamiliar with Nextag but it looks like a price comparison site and you could perhaps argue that price comparison is simply a missing feature of Google.
- AnthonyMouse 14y ago
  >What's the complaint here? Google makes changes that sometimes negatively impact someone's business? As far as I can tell, it's largely a bunch of spammers trying to attack Google for downranking their spam. The argument is that Google competes with them and so shouldn't be allowed to use its dominance to favor its own service. But it's pure nonsense. These companies aren't valid search results. They only ever got into the results through SEO, and then they wail when the algorithm improves to kick them out. Someone who searches for "kitchen table" is looking for a website selling or providing information about kitchen tables, not a search engine that allows them to search for websites selling or providing information about kitchen tables. The user is already on a search engine -- other search engines are not relevant search results unless the search term is in the nature of "XYZ search engine." What the complainers are doing is the equivalent of going into the largest chain of retail stores and putting boxes on the shelves labeled with a brand that the major retailer doesn't carry, which don't actually contain any product but instead contain a map to other stores that carry the brand the retailer doesn't. And then complaining when the retailer doesn't allow the spam products to remain on their shelves, and claiming it's an antitrust violation because the retailer has the most market share and it sells its own competing brands of products. Naturally that doesn't convince judges or sell newspapers, so the spammers scour the world for instances of algorithmic imperfection that give a bad ranking to someone else, who unlike the spammers didn't actually deserve it, and then play ominous music as they reveal the shocking fact that some Google engineer's 20% project or some little-known subsidiary responsible for 0.00043% of corporate revenue arguably competes with the disadvantaged website in some fashion.
  - Evbn 14y ago
    As HN favorite duckduckgo shows, sometimes the best result a search engine can provide is in fact another search engine. But not always, and not forever.
stfu 14y ago
“We try very hard to make sure we communicate with Webmasters,” Mr. Cutts says. For instance, he says, he reassured Gawker Media that it would remain in search results after Hurricane Sandy caused it to crash. This somewhat perfectly summarizes the genius solution Google found to customer service. Google is very keen to react with a personal face to high profile cases while at the same time squeezing all the thousands of faceless small businesses in similar situations into Adwords.
- TomGullen 14y ago
  How is Google squeezing small businesses?
  - sudont 14y ago
    Basically, the volatility of their algorithm and the opaqueness of it means that any small business that is getting >80% Google-referred traffic is in for a tough time if they're marked as bad. And mistakes happen. Say: * A canonical tag that shows up due to a bug. Dead. * Industry terms that appear duplicative to the NLP parser. Dead. * Too-diverse content. Lower rankings, but functionally dead. There's tons more, but I'm not a practitioner of SEO.
    - snogglethorpe 14y ago
      This smells like bullshit to me. Google's search results are generally extremely good from the "customer's" point of view. People whining about how they're hurt by losing search position inevitably turn out to be spammers or other lowlife that have been trying to use "SEO" or some other shady practice to artificially inflate their search position. So yeah, Google is bad for con-men. Darn.
      - don_draper 14y ago
        I've been spending time in Black Hat internet marketing forums (out of curiosity). They hate Google. Google is consistently making their search engine better for the user and worse for spammers.
ksikka 14y ago
Some sites go down in rankings, but other (hopefully) more useful sites go up in rankings. Also if your company is impacted negatively by this, you should attempt to focus more on social network effects to reduce reliance on Google. For example, integration from Facebook and Twitter opens up more channels for users to visit your site through.
- victorantos 14y ago
  my 5 year old website has dropped traffic 3X suddenly, I was shocked, who to blame now, Google? https://dl.dropbox.com/u/45940875/google-negatively-affects-my-traffic.jpg https://dl.dropbox.com/u/45940875/google-negatively-affects-...
camus 14y ago
The question is, is google the web? why do we rely so much on google ? because we became lazy ... because browsers like firefox promoted google search heavily , until it becomes obsolete as a browser itself because of chrome , because all these comparison sites built their businesses on google search engine, and now google has his own shopping search engine , they became obsolete , and the list goes on and on... our businesses rely too much on google, until google take us out of business...
- snogglethorpe 14y ago
  > why do we rely so much on google ? because we became lazy Because google delivers amazingly good results. [Oh, and FF certainly isn't "obsolete because of chrome." Both are fine browsers, and the competition has proved beneficial to both of them.]
  - enneff 14y ago
    Furthermore, judging by this graph http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=File:Usage_share_of_web_browsers_(Source_StatCounter).svg&page=1 http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=File:Usage_share_o... it seems that Chrome's rise in popularity correlates with IE's decline.
    - Evbn 14y ago
      Recent reports show IE gaining and FF dropping.
staunch 14y ago
The problem is that Google competes with businesses that once thrived on its platform. It's similar to when Microsoft decided to bundle IE into Windows. Google now bundles comparison shopping and local business reviews into search. If they go too far in this direction it will probably hurt them. Users don't want a search engine that puts its own, lesser quality, sites at the top. It'd be amazing if Google spun off Google Search as its own company. The business is so narrow and successful that it could probably survive for 50 years without any fundamental change. Instead, it's being distorted and weighed down by a sprawling organization that's desperate to create new businesses, and compromising the search product to do so.
- itp 14y ago
  Maybe you can help me understand this analogy a little better. You say that it's similar to when Microsoft decided to bundle IE into Windows, but the comparison isn't totally obvious to me at first blush. Microsoft went to great (and often illegal?) lengths to prevent customers from considering or being able to make use of alternatives. Consumers had a great deal of lock in -- a user of a Windows computer often had software that would only be compatible with a new computer that also ran Windows, for instance. And Microsoft was able to use that leverage to acquire and keep users of its browser software. Google doesn't seem to be following that pattern, as far as I can see. Users can (and do) make use of Google services from non-Google platforms. Google makes its products available to people using browsers other than Chrome, phones other than Android, etc. Performing a Google search requires no account. I use Google for a lot of services, and I certainly don't want a lesser quality site at the top of my search results. I haven't seen that, either. I _have_ seen Google augment its already stellar services with new features that enhance my experience, and I ignore those things that haven't. If I ever find myself unable to ignore or disable things, I'll probably switch to another search engine. Which I'm free to do, since my use of the internet isn't controlled by Google! You make some assertions that I'm just not seeing the evidence for, but I'd like to hear more about them. It seems uncontroversial that users don't want lesser quality search results. Where is the evidence that they are seeing them? And if they are, why aren't they switching to a different search engine? Why should Google have to separate their "core" search business from their other ventures right at a time when the expanded product (things like Google Now) is proving just how revolutionary a next-generation, personalized, multi-source search agent can be?
ridiculous_fish 14y ago
I think the most serious concern is how Google promotes its own offerings above more popular competitors in the search results section. For example, do a search for "finance" and Google Finance is shown above Yahoo! finance, even though Yahoo! finance is better by most measures, and far more popular (see http://www.businessinsider.com/google-finance-yahoo-finance-2012-8 http://www.businessinsider.com/google-finance-yahoo-finance-... ) If you rely on Google to drive traffic, but also compete with Google, that puts you in a difficult spot. Consumers ought to be annoyed too. Google has historically does a good job distinguishing between links that are artificially promoted (ads) and algorithmic rankings. But Google is artificially promoting their own offerings and presenting them as if they're a result of the algorithm. This seems like a bad strategy. It has the potential to shake user confidence in Google's impartiality and link quality, annoy site maintainers, and drive away advertisers.
- timothya 14y ago
  I'm not convinced that Google moves it's own results up as part of the organic search results. Bing puts Google Finance first before Yahoo Finance as well. Regardless of it's popularity, its position may simply because of other signals in the ranking algorithm.
  - ridiculous_fish 14y ago
    Google freely admits to putting their own links first. Here's what Marissa Mayer said in 2007: We didn't actually have Google Finance until about a year ago. Up until then we were ordering the links based on various published metrics... We had the five top finance sites in their order of their popularity listed there. So we rolled out Google Finance, we put the Google link first. (You can watch it at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LT1UFZSbcxE http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LT1UFZSbcxE - that quote starts at 44:50.) Your observation regarding Bing is quite interesting. Your theory may very well be right, but there's a hilarious alternative: It's known that Microsoft uses Google's rankings (see http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2011/02/microsofts-bing-uses-google-search.html http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2011/02/microsofts-bing-uses-... ). This would then propagate onto Yahoo, which uses Bing's engine, which means that Yahoo is told their own site is less popular. But Yahoo puts their site first, which may mean they're artificially boosting its ranking, under the guidance of you know who! So 2012 Marissa Mayer may be artificially boosting Yahoo's rank to defeat 2007's Marissa Mayer's artificial boost of Google's rank. Ha!
xpose2000 14y ago
It's tough to find any wrong doing by Google in an article like this. It's pure speculation. Many of their tools, step on other sites toes. Hipmunk and kayak recently had to deal with https://www.google.com/flights/ https://www.google.com/flights/. When searching for goods such as "macbook pro" you'll notice sponsored links with prices that Google "may be compensated from". That type of stuff seems unfair to me. I won't say Google is playing unfair as of late, but they are certainly more than just displaying results these days.
mladenkovacevic 14y ago
Hmm I wonder if Nextag's traffic is being affected not by Google's algorithm changing to hurt them personally, but rather to include more localized results. Example: Whenever I want to do comparison shopping I would type in "{{product name}} price canada". A few years ago Nextag would always come up first and I would click on it, only to be frustrated by the fact that the retailers listed were all American. Now not too long ago more and more of these services cropped up that offered Canadian listings (shopbot.ca, canoe.ca, and now even Canada Post has their own website that does the same thing). Now imagine this happening country by country all over the world and it's not inconceivable that Nextag's traffic would be shrinking. Also I've just realized that Nextag also has a .ca destination but for some reason I've NEVER seen it come up in my results.
capo 14y ago
The folks at Nextag (which by the way sells product listings without disclosing them and then complains about google: http://searchengineland.com/given-nextags-lack-of-transparency-its-wsj-opinion-piece-asking-for-google-transparency-isnt-wise-124045 http://searchengineland.com/given-nextags-lack-of-transparen...) are telling the same sob story to every reporter who would listen. Their complaint is that they keep getting less free traffic from Google as if they are somehow entitled to it, they insist that they are living in a "Google world" and then go on to contradict that by saying that they are diversifying. It’s frustrating that the reporters are trying to cast doubt over every instance of a website getting demoted in rank as if the web is static and Google’s code base is unchanging, and they don't even give much consideration to inevitable errors in large and complicated systems. They offer no proof just speculations and innuendo. But what I find to be most frustrating is that this article shares the same blind insistence with Google’s opponents that search engines must only rank blue links, and only links to other websites, which is not only an ati-innovation stance but also an unintuitive one. As IBM’s Watson and to a lesser extent Siri has shown, search interface is about immediate answers, and the ultimate answer to these accusations still stands: if you don't like Google’s results use another service, if you can't reach a certain website via Google you can go directly to their website or get their smartphone app or follow them on Twitter or Facebook or bloody Instagram. It is also worth mentioning that the NYT ran editorials urging the government to investigate Google, and I think a disclaimer mentioning that ought to have preceded the article: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/15/opinion/15thu3.html http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/15/opinion/15thu3.html
- schwabacher 14y ago
  I am with you on all points until your last - Newspapers take great pains to keep news and editorial departments separate. I don't think it is common practice to disclose past editorials on the same topic as news articles, and if it were, the New York Times would have to disclose stances on both sides of many issues.
- doctorpangloss 14y ago
  If you don't like Google’s results use another service. Sure, but Google has two kinds of customers: searchers and websites. Maybe you believe websites shouldn't hide from Google because it makes no strategic sense. Twitter and Facebook don't let Google index their content. Why would they let Google front-run ads on their content? It's not a catchall rule, to hide with robots.txt. Maybe websites should just pay up: they should auction for higher results, if their business depends on search placement. But that's misunderstanding Google's role. Google isn't a salesperson. It's more like a road. Both bring business to your door (literally), but the latter gets used by everyone for everything. And it turns out it doesn't matter how you pave the road (roads have been public since the Egyptian times, yet road-building technology has changed dramatically) or whatever. To Nextag, Google is a utility. It is only by tradition that some monopolists become utilities and others do not. How do you regulate Google for what it is: a public utility?
programminggeek 14y ago
The problem: "Nextag’s response? It doubled its spending on Google paid search advertising in the last five months." Google knows this and they have an incentive to move "commercial" sites towards AdWords and move "informational" sites higher in the organic results. The benefit is engineers can claim they are providing a better end user search experience while AdWords can make even more money. The bigger problem is that the top 10 on a search string can be very arbitrary. What should be the top ten for the search term "shoes"? Wikipedia? Zappos? Local shoe stores? A blog about shoes? Are the top 10 the top 10 because they should be there or simply because Google put them there? Nextag is an example of a company built on a platform (Google organic search results) that is somewhat hostile to Nextag's business. It's similar to the whole Twitter client app situation. Nextag needs Google, but Google doesn't need Nextag. It's an unequal partnership of sorts and Google doesn't care of Nextag exists. It's too bad, but that is the nature of Google's platform.
joelrunyon 14y ago
I'm really amazed (and impressed) at how many mentions & links Vote-USA got throughout that article. Seemed like an inordinate amount for the number of times it was mentioned. Also, I get the whole "we got deindexed" from Google, but duplicate content is not necessarily a new thing. If you got penalized for it, so did a bunch of other people. You shouldn't act like it's a surprise and whine about it. Just fix it and move on.
- Evbn 14y ago
  (Obligatory http://paulgraham.com/submarine.html http://paulgraham.com/submarine.html link)
joelrunyon 14y ago
The entire premise of this article seems bogus to me. "Google casts a big shadow on smaller web sites." That title implies that Google is specifically targeting smaller web sites which isn't the case. The problem seems to be that some shady small business did some shady stuff, got caught and got mad about it. Google didn't go and replace them with walmart, they probably replaced them in the results with a similar sized company. Someone lost and someone won – that's it. I'm the first to say Google should step up it's customer service, but it's disingenuous to act like Google is proactively seeking out small businesses who never did anything wrong in favor of big massive conglomerations.
lazyjones 14y ago
I can sympathize with Nextag on the topic of Google entering their market and possibly being a little less than objective regarding their own product (Benjamin Edelman has written about this several times: http://www.benedelman.org/ http://www.benedelman.org/). On the other hand, getting 60% traffic from Google is very unhealthy (18 mil. of 30 mil. monthly users?) and doesn't make Nextag look like a site people stick to because of its quality. None of the sites I visit daily (directly) has anywhere near that much search traffic (according to Alexa), so perhaps Nextag hits are perceived by searchers as "generic", interchangeable results that happen to rank well on Google and they don't care much whether the hits are from Nextag, Google Shopping or any other e-commerce site.
jameswyse 14y ago
If these kind of sites stop clogging up my search results then I'm all for it, good job Google!
gscott 14y ago
Google Search is becoming more like adwords. They just removed a site I manage because it doesn't meet the Google quality guidelines easyfastcheaponlinetrafficeschool.com. When they remove your site its like disappearing from the internet... I had to switch the site to a new domain and the loss in sales has been about $70,000+ so far not to mention spending more on adwords.
- Evbn 14y ago
  Pretty sure Google's long published webmaster guide discouraged that domain name years ago.
EGreg 14y ago
It seems like NexTag, and maybe other sites, are complaining that they are getting less free traffic from google. Why do they think they are entitled to have as much free traffic as ever? Towards the end, they say they are on their way to stop living in "Google's world" and the revised plan gives them "a shot at being a very healthy company," less dependent on Google. Well, great! So if they are able to do that, why involve regulators? They should have done that before!
alpatters 14y ago
I do wonder sometimes if google's own site would pass its site quality guidelines. Like duplicated content; the same content appearing on multiple pages, all pages should be linked from somewhere on the site or a site map, substantial original content. I think it fails on all three of these, so in some sense it is anti-competitive to block other sites that fail these measures whilst it doesn't hold itself up to those same standards.
- Evbn 14y ago
  Example of a bad google page that ranks high in search?
Xion 14y ago
> The government’s scrutiny of Google is the most exhaustive investigation of a major corporation since the pursuit of Microsoft in the late 1990s. I can't help to notice that apparently in the last 15 years or so, a significant government interest was only focused on high-tech companies. Looks like more "traditional" branches of economy and companies working therein are generally behaving fine... Companies like Lehman Brothers, for example.
bocalogic 14y ago
Well, if you are not satisfied with google you can always use bing and yahoo. I do suggest you search for the same thing on each service to see the differences in your rankings. One thing I did not see mentioned was the new google rollout on adwords and merchant center (google base feed). Google use to allow free submissions of products into the shopping segment, but now all of your product submissions must be linked to an adwords account by which google adwords can charge you. It steps directly on nextags formula.
jl00080 14y ago
Dont want to see Google monopolize the search engine market in future, and it is the reason why sometimes i will use bing.com. Actually it is not bad.
alexkearns 14y ago
Our web app has recently been hit by a Google algorithm change. Search traffic has fallen off a cliff. If it continues, it could be a threat to our business. We have never done any underhand SEO. We haven't done any SEO at all. People love the app but now, alas, they can't find it. Ironically, just before we fell out of the search rankings, a Google developer evangelist got in touch to say how much they liked our app and that Google would like to partner with our app on an upcoming initiative. If there are any Google engineers here who would like to help, I'd be most appreciative.
- Evbn 14y ago
  Do some white hat SEO. Google.com/webmaster
wrath 14y ago
I work for a company that relied primarily on Google for it's source of revenue. About a year ago our traffic dramatically dropped because of a change in Google's algorithm. We always had plans to diversify our business but we never did. At the time it hit us hard, but we were able refocused our business. As a consequence our business is far healthier than it was in the past. Google is only a fraction of our traffic generation strategy, essentially we have a sustainable business model now.
greggoodson 14y ago
Wow - when will this guy stop? This isn't new. Every few months, Jeff Katz goes on a Google rant. And it's getting old. From 2011. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111903374004576583092262671326.html?mod=WSJ_hp_LEFTTopStories http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405311190337400457658... http://techcrunch.com/2012/06/08/nextag-ceo-google-is-a-monopoly-google-youve-got-plenty-of-choice/ http://techcrunch.com/2012/06/08/nextag-ceo-google-is-a-mono... Having worked in-house for several large online retailers as well as a handful of independent clients on the side, the comparison shopping engine industry was my obsession for several years. CSEs can make you money, but it doesn't take long to figure out all CSEs do is play a game of "sell traffic to retailers for cheaper than they can buy it themselves." After 12 months of CSEs, it was obvious that being a "CSE expert" wasn't a good career path for me. Arguably, Nextag's four competitors are Google Shopping, Pricegrabber, Shopzilla, and Shopping.com. Google Shopping was free to list your products for the longest time (until earlier this year), which provided for a much better user experience. Between 2008 and 2010, Google Shopping's marketshare kept eating away at these other CSEs. It was clear their product was better on all fronts. I think it should also be noted that in 2005, Shopzilla was acquired by Scripps for $525M. Scripps sold Shopzilla to a private equity company for $165M last year. Pricegrabber was bought in 2005 as well - $485M price tag. They just got dumped for ~$80M. Most CSEs were founded in the 90s; you could argue that their models haven't changed since. It's not working anymore. Take it with a grain of salt, but peek at Google trends and Nextag's Alexa site info: http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/nextag.com http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/nextag.com http://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=nextag http://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=nextag Nextag's services are becoming obsolete. I find it concerning that their response is to "double its spending on Google paid search advertising in the last five months". I guarantee you they're seeing the same kind of traffic patterns in Bing as well. Nextag is just a whole bunch of click arbitrage silliness. Don't drink the kool-aid.

75 points by iProject 14y ago

You want access to God? God says... 24:15 The eye also of the adulterer waiteth for the twilight, saying, No eye shall see me: and disguiseth his face. 24:16 In the dark they dig through houses, which they had marked for themselves in the daytime: they know not the light. 24:17 For the morning is to them even as the shadow of death: if one know them, they are in the terrors of the shadow of death. 24:18 He is swift as the waters; their portion is cursed in the earth: he beholdeth not the way of the vineyards. 24:19 Drought and heat consume the snow waters: so doth the grave those which have sinned. 24:20 The womb shall forget him; the worm shall feed sweetly on him; he shall be no more remembered; and wickedness shall be broken as a tree.

TomGullen 14y ago

What's the complaint here? Google makes changes that sometimes negatively impact someone's business? As long as Google's algorithm is trending in the correct direction (that is towards better quality results) then these complaints are just growing pains and I don't see much of a problem. Some startups are criticised for simply being features of a chosen platform. Once they get big enough, the platform in control will simply add the feature and eliminate the startup. I'm unfamiliar with Nextag but it looks like a price comparison site and you could perhaps argue that price comparison is simply a missing feature of Google.

AnthonyMouse 14y ago
>What's the complaint here? Google makes changes that sometimes negatively impact someone's business? As far as I can tell, it's largely a bunch of spammers trying to attack Google for downranking their spam. The argument is that Google competes with them and so shouldn't be allowed to use its dominance to favor its own service. But it's pure nonsense. These companies aren't valid search results. They only ever got into the results through SEO, and then they wail when the algorithm improves to kick them out. Someone who searches for "kitchen table" is looking for a website selling or providing information about kitchen tables, not a search engine that allows them to search for websites selling or providing information about kitchen tables. The user is already on a search engine -- other search engines are not relevant search results unless the search term is in the nature of "XYZ search engine." What the complainers are doing is the equivalent of going into the largest chain of retail stores and putting boxes on the shelves labeled with a brand that the major retailer doesn't carry, which don't actually contain any product but instead contain a map to other stores that carry the brand the retailer doesn't. And then complaining when the retailer doesn't allow the spam products to remain on their shelves, and claiming it's an antitrust violation because the retailer has the most market share and it sells its own competing brands of products. Naturally that doesn't convince judges or sell newspapers, so the spammers scour the world for instances of algorithmic imperfection that give a bad ranking to someone else, who unlike the spammers didn't actually deserve it, and then play ominous music as they reveal the shocking fact that some Google engineer's 20% project or some little-known subsidiary responsible for 0.00043% of corporate revenue arguably competes with the disadvantaged website in some fashion.
- Evbn 14y ago
  As HN favorite duckduckgo shows, sometimes the best result a search engine can provide is in fact another search engine. But not always, and not forever.

stfu 14y ago

“We try very hard to make sure we communicate with Webmasters,” Mr. Cutts says. For instance, he says, he reassured Gawker Media that it would remain in search results after Hurricane Sandy caused it to crash. This somewhat perfectly summarizes the genius solution Google found to customer service. Google is very keen to react with a personal face to high profile cases while at the same time squeezing all the thousands of faceless small businesses in similar situations into Adwords.

TomGullen 14y ago
How is Google squeezing small businesses?
- sudont 14y ago
  Basically, the volatility of their algorithm and the opaqueness of it means that any small business that is getting >80% Google-referred traffic is in for a tough time if they're marked as bad. And mistakes happen. Say: * A canonical tag that shows up due to a bug. Dead. * Industry terms that appear duplicative to the NLP parser. Dead. * Too-diverse content. Lower rankings, but functionally dead. There's tons more, but I'm not a practitioner of SEO.
  - snogglethorpe 14y ago
    This smells like bullshit to me. Google's search results are generally extremely good from the "customer's" point of view. People whining about how they're hurt by losing search position inevitably turn out to be spammers or other lowlife that have been trying to use "SEO" or some other shady practice to artificially inflate their search position. So yeah, Google is bad for con-men. Darn.
    - don_draper 14y ago
      I've been spending time in Black Hat internet marketing forums (out of curiosity). They hate Google. Google is consistently making their search engine better for the user and worse for spammers.

ksikka 14y ago

Some sites go down in rankings, but other (hopefully) more useful sites go up in rankings. Also if your company is impacted negatively by this, you should attempt to focus more on social network effects to reduce reliance on Google. For example, integration from Facebook and Twitter opens up more channels for users to visit your site through.

victorantos 14y ago
my 5 year old website has dropped traffic 3X suddenly, I was shocked, who to blame now, Google? https://dl.dropbox.com/u/45940875/google-negatively-affects-my-traffic.jpg https://dl.dropbox.com/u/45940875/google-negatively-affects-...

camus 14y ago

The question is, is google the web? why do we rely so much on google ? because we became lazy ... because browsers like firefox promoted google search heavily , until it becomes obsolete as a browser itself because of chrome , because all these comparison sites built their businesses on google search engine, and now google has his own shopping search engine , they became obsolete , and the list goes on and on... our businesses rely too much on google, until google take us out of business...

snogglethorpe 14y ago
> why do we rely so much on google ? because we became lazy Because google delivers amazingly good results. [Oh, and FF certainly isn't "obsolete because of chrome." Both are fine browsers, and the competition has proved beneficial to both of them.]
- enneff 14y ago
  Furthermore, judging by this graph http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=File:Usage_share_of_web_browsers_(Source_StatCounter).svg&page=1 http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=File:Usage_share_o... it seems that Chrome's rise in popularity correlates with IE's decline.
  - Evbn 14y ago
    Recent reports show IE gaining and FF dropping.

staunch 14y ago

The problem is that Google competes with businesses that once thrived on its platform. It's similar to when Microsoft decided to bundle IE into Windows. Google now bundles comparison shopping and local business reviews into search. If they go too far in this direction it will probably hurt them. Users don't want a search engine that puts its own, lesser quality, sites at the top. It'd be amazing if Google spun off Google Search as its own company. The business is so narrow and successful that it could probably survive for 50 years without any fundamental change. Instead, it's being distorted and weighed down by a sprawling organization that's desperate to create new businesses, and compromising the search product to do so.

itp 14y ago
Maybe you can help me understand this analogy a little better. You say that it's similar to when Microsoft decided to bundle IE into Windows, but the comparison isn't totally obvious to me at first blush. Microsoft went to great (and often illegal?) lengths to prevent customers from considering or being able to make use of alternatives. Consumers had a great deal of lock in -- a user of a Windows computer often had software that would only be compatible with a new computer that also ran Windows, for instance. And Microsoft was able to use that leverage to acquire and keep users of its browser software. Google doesn't seem to be following that pattern, as far as I can see. Users can (and do) make use of Google services from non-Google platforms. Google makes its products available to people using browsers other than Chrome, phones other than Android, etc. Performing a Google search requires no account. I use Google for a lot of services, and I certainly don't want a lesser quality site at the top of my search results. I haven't seen that, either. I _have_ seen Google augment its already stellar services with new features that enhance my experience, and I ignore those things that haven't. If I ever find myself unable to ignore or disable things, I'll probably switch to another search engine. Which I'm free to do, since my use of the internet isn't controlled by Google! You make some assertions that I'm just not seeing the evidence for, but I'd like to hear more about them. It seems uncontroversial that users don't want lesser quality search results. Where is the evidence that they are seeing them? And if they are, why aren't they switching to a different search engine? Why should Google have to separate their "core" search business from their other ventures right at a time when the expanded product (things like Google Now) is proving just how revolutionary a next-generation, personalized, multi-source search agent can be?

ridiculous_fish 14y ago

I think the most serious concern is how Google promotes its own offerings above more popular competitors in the search results section. For example, do a search for "finance" and Google Finance is shown above Yahoo! finance, even though Yahoo! finance is better by most measures, and far more popular (see http://www.businessinsider.com/google-finance-yahoo-finance-2012-8 http://www.businessinsider.com/google-finance-yahoo-finance-... ) If you rely on Google to drive traffic, but also compete with Google, that puts you in a difficult spot. Consumers ought to be annoyed too. Google has historically does a good job distinguishing between links that are artificially promoted (ads) and algorithmic rankings. But Google is artificially promoting their own offerings and presenting them as if they're a result of the algorithm. This seems like a bad strategy. It has the potential to shake user confidence in Google's impartiality and link quality, annoy site maintainers, and drive away advertisers.

timothya 14y ago
I'm not convinced that Google moves it's own results up as part of the organic search results. Bing puts Google Finance first before Yahoo Finance as well. Regardless of it's popularity, its position may simply because of other signals in the ranking algorithm.
- ridiculous_fish 14y ago
  Google freely admits to putting their own links first. Here's what Marissa Mayer said in 2007: We didn't actually have Google Finance until about a year ago. Up until then we were ordering the links based on various published metrics... We had the five top finance sites in their order of their popularity listed there. So we rolled out Google Finance, we put the Google link first. (You can watch it at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LT1UFZSbcxE http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LT1UFZSbcxE - that quote starts at 44:50.) Your observation regarding Bing is quite interesting. Your theory may very well be right, but there's a hilarious alternative: It's known that Microsoft uses Google's rankings (see http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2011/02/microsofts-bing-uses-google-search.html http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2011/02/microsofts-bing-uses-... ). This would then propagate onto Yahoo, which uses Bing's engine, which means that Yahoo is told their own site is less popular. But Yahoo puts their site first, which may mean they're artificially boosting its ranking, under the guidance of you know who! So 2012 Marissa Mayer may be artificially boosting Yahoo's rank to defeat 2007's Marissa Mayer's artificial boost of Google's rank. Ha!

xpose2000 14y ago

It's tough to find any wrong doing by Google in an article like this. It's pure speculation. Many of their tools, step on other sites toes. Hipmunk and kayak recently had to deal with https://www.google.com/flights/ https://www.google.com/flights/. When searching for goods such as "macbook pro" you'll notice sponsored links with prices that Google "may be compensated from". That type of stuff seems unfair to me. I won't say Google is playing unfair as of late, but they are certainly more than just displaying results these days.

mladenkovacevic 14y ago

Hmm I wonder if Nextag's traffic is being affected not by Google's algorithm changing to hurt them personally, but rather to include more localized results. Example: Whenever I want to do comparison shopping I would type in "{{product name}} price canada". A few years ago Nextag would always come up first and I would click on it, only to be frustrated by the fact that the retailers listed were all American. Now not too long ago more and more of these services cropped up that offered Canadian listings (shopbot.ca, canoe.ca, and now even Canada Post has their own website that does the same thing). Now imagine this happening country by country all over the world and it's not inconceivable that Nextag's traffic would be shrinking. Also I've just realized that Nextag also has a .ca destination but for some reason I've NEVER seen it come up in my results.

capo 14y ago

The folks at Nextag (which by the way sells product listings without disclosing them and then complains about google: http://searchengineland.com/given-nextags-lack-of-transparency-its-wsj-opinion-piece-asking-for-google-transparency-isnt-wise-124045 http://searchengineland.com/given-nextags-lack-of-transparen...) are telling the same sob story to every reporter who would listen. Their complaint is that they keep getting less free traffic from Google as if they are somehow entitled to it, they insist that they are living in a "Google world" and then go on to contradict that by saying that they are diversifying. It’s frustrating that the reporters are trying to cast doubt over every instance of a website getting demoted in rank as if the web is static and Google’s code base is unchanging, and they don't even give much consideration to inevitable errors in large and complicated systems. They offer no proof just speculations and innuendo. But what I find to be most frustrating is that this article shares the same blind insistence with Google’s opponents that search engines must only rank blue links, and only links to other websites, which is not only an ati-innovation stance but also an unintuitive one. As IBM’s Watson and to a lesser extent Siri has shown, search interface is about immediate answers, and the ultimate answer to these accusations still stands: if you don't like Google’s results use another service, if you can't reach a certain website via Google you can go directly to their website or get their smartphone app or follow them on Twitter or Facebook or bloody Instagram. It is also worth mentioning that the NYT ran editorials urging the government to investigate Google, and I think a disclaimer mentioning that ought to have preceded the article: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/15/opinion/15thu3.html http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/15/opinion/15thu3.html

schwabacher 14y ago
I am with you on all points until your last - Newspapers take great pains to keep news and editorial departments separate. I don't think it is common practice to disclose past editorials on the same topic as news articles, and if it were, the New York Times would have to disclose stances on both sides of many issues.
doctorpangloss 14y ago
If you don't like Google’s results use another service. Sure, but Google has two kinds of customers: searchers and websites. Maybe you believe websites shouldn't hide from Google because it makes no strategic sense. Twitter and Facebook don't let Google index their content. Why would they let Google front-run ads on their content? It's not a catchall rule, to hide with robots.txt. Maybe websites should just pay up: they should auction for higher results, if their business depends on search placement. But that's misunderstanding Google's role. Google isn't a salesperson. It's more like a road. Both bring business to your door (literally), but the latter gets used by everyone for everything. And it turns out it doesn't matter how you pave the road (roads have been public since the Egyptian times, yet road-building technology has changed dramatically) or whatever. To Nextag, Google is a utility. It is only by tradition that some monopolists become utilities and others do not. How do you regulate Google for what it is: a public utility?

programminggeek 14y ago

The problem: "Nextag’s response? It doubled its spending on Google paid search advertising in the last five months." Google knows this and they have an incentive to move "commercial" sites towards AdWords and move "informational" sites higher in the organic results. The benefit is engineers can claim they are providing a better end user search experience while AdWords can make even more money. The bigger problem is that the top 10 on a search string can be very arbitrary. What should be the top ten for the search term "shoes"? Wikipedia? Zappos? Local shoe stores? A blog about shoes? Are the top 10 the top 10 because they should be there or simply because Google put them there? Nextag is an example of a company built on a platform (Google organic search results) that is somewhat hostile to Nextag's business. It's similar to the whole Twitter client app situation. Nextag needs Google, but Google doesn't need Nextag. It's an unequal partnership of sorts and Google doesn't care of Nextag exists. It's too bad, but that is the nature of Google's platform.

joelrunyon 14y ago

I'm really amazed (and impressed) at how many mentions & links Vote-USA got throughout that article. Seemed like an inordinate amount for the number of times it was mentioned. Also, I get the whole "we got deindexed" from Google, but duplicate content is not necessarily a new thing. If you got penalized for it, so did a bunch of other people. You shouldn't act like it's a surprise and whine about it. Just fix it and move on.

Evbn 14y ago
(Obligatory http://paulgraham.com/submarine.html http://paulgraham.com/submarine.html link)

joelrunyon 14y ago

The entire premise of this article seems bogus to me. "Google casts a big shadow on smaller web sites." That title implies that Google is specifically targeting smaller web sites which isn't the case. The problem seems to be that some shady small business did some shady stuff, got caught and got mad about it. Google didn't go and replace them with walmart, they probably replaced them in the results with a similar sized company. Someone lost and someone won – that's it. I'm the first to say Google should step up it's customer service, but it's disingenuous to act like Google is proactively seeking out small businesses who never did anything wrong in favor of big massive conglomerations.

lazyjones 14y ago

I can sympathize with Nextag on the topic of Google entering their market and possibly being a little less than objective regarding their own product (Benjamin Edelman has written about this several times: http://www.benedelman.org/ http://www.benedelman.org/). On the other hand, getting 60% traffic from Google is very unhealthy (18 mil. of 30 mil. monthly users?) and doesn't make Nextag look like a site people stick to because of its quality. None of the sites I visit daily (directly) has anywhere near that much search traffic (according to Alexa), so perhaps Nextag hits are perceived by searchers as "generic", interchangeable results that happen to rank well on Google and they don't care much whether the hits are from Nextag, Google Shopping or any other e-commerce site.

jameswyse 14y ago

If these kind of sites stop clogging up my search results then I'm all for it, good job Google!

gscott 14y ago

Google Search is becoming more like adwords. They just removed a site I manage because it doesn't meet the Google quality guidelines easyfastcheaponlinetrafficeschool.com. When they remove your site its like disappearing from the internet... I had to switch the site to a new domain and the loss in sales has been about $70,000+ so far not to mention spending more on adwords.

Evbn 14y ago
Pretty sure Google's long published webmaster guide discouraged that domain name years ago.

EGreg 14y ago

It seems like NexTag, and maybe other sites, are complaining that they are getting less free traffic from google. Why do they think they are entitled to have as much free traffic as ever? Towards the end, they say they are on their way to stop living in "Google's world" and the revised plan gives them "a shot at being a very healthy company," less dependent on Google. Well, great! So if they are able to do that, why involve regulators? They should have done that before!

alpatters 14y ago

I do wonder sometimes if google's own site would pass its site quality guidelines. Like duplicated content; the same content appearing on multiple pages, all pages should be linked from somewhere on the site or a site map, substantial original content. I think it fails on all three of these, so in some sense it is anti-competitive to block other sites that fail these measures whilst it doesn't hold itself up to those same standards.

Evbn 14y ago
Example of a bad google page that ranks high in search?

Xion 14y ago

> The government’s scrutiny of Google is the most exhaustive investigation of a major corporation since the pursuit of Microsoft in the late 1990s. I can't help to notice that apparently in the last 15 years or so, a significant government interest was only focused on high-tech companies. Looks like more "traditional" branches of economy and companies working therein are generally behaving fine... Companies like Lehman Brothers, for example.

bocalogic 14y ago

Well, if you are not satisfied with google you can always use bing and yahoo. I do suggest you search for the same thing on each service to see the differences in your rankings. One thing I did not see mentioned was the new google rollout on adwords and merchant center (google base feed). Google use to allow free submissions of products into the shopping segment, but now all of your product submissions must be linked to an adwords account by which google adwords can charge you. It steps directly on nextags formula.

jl00080 14y ago

Dont want to see Google monopolize the search engine market in future, and it is the reason why sometimes i will use bing.com. Actually it is not bad.

alexkearns 14y ago

Our web app has recently been hit by a Google algorithm change. Search traffic has fallen off a cliff. If it continues, it could be a threat to our business. We have never done any underhand SEO. We haven't done any SEO at all. People love the app but now, alas, they can't find it. Ironically, just before we fell out of the search rankings, a Google developer evangelist got in touch to say how much they liked our app and that Google would like to partner with our app on an upcoming initiative. If there are any Google engineers here who would like to help, I'd be most appreciative.

Evbn 14y ago
Do some white hat SEO. Google.com/webmaster

wrath 14y ago

I work for a company that relied primarily on Google for it's source of revenue. About a year ago our traffic dramatically dropped because of a change in Google's algorithm. We always had plans to diversify our business but we never did. At the time it hit us hard, but we were able refocused our business. As a consequence our business is far healthier than it was in the past. Google is only a fraction of our traffic generation strategy, essentially we have a sustainable business model now.

greggoodson 14y ago

Wow - when will this guy stop? This isn't new. Every few months, Jeff Katz goes on a Google rant. And it's getting old. From 2011. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111903374004576583092262671326.html?mod=WSJ_hp_LEFTTopStories http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405311190337400457658... http://techcrunch.com/2012/06/08/nextag-ceo-google-is-a-monopoly-google-youve-got-plenty-of-choice/ http://techcrunch.com/2012/06/08/nextag-ceo-google-is-a-mono... Having worked in-house for several large online retailers as well as a handful of independent clients on the side, the comparison shopping engine industry was my obsession for several years. CSEs can make you money, but it doesn't take long to figure out all CSEs do is play a game of "sell traffic to retailers for cheaper than they can buy it themselves." After 12 months of CSEs, it was obvious that being a "CSE expert" wasn't a good career path for me. Arguably, Nextag's four competitors are Google Shopping, Pricegrabber, Shopzilla, and Shopping.com. Google Shopping was free to list your products for the longest time (until earlier this year), which provided for a much better user experience. Between 2008 and 2010, Google Shopping's marketshare kept eating away at these other CSEs. It was clear their product was better on all fronts. I think it should also be noted that in 2005, Shopzilla was acquired by Scripps for $525M. Scripps sold Shopzilla to a private equity company for $165M last year. Pricegrabber was bought in 2005 as well - $485M price tag. They just got dumped for ~$80M. Most CSEs were founded in the 90s; you could argue that their models haven't changed since. It's not working anymore. Take it with a grain of salt, but peek at Google trends and Nextag's Alexa site info: http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/nextag.com http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/nextag.com http://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=nextag http://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=nextag Nextag's services are becoming obsolete. I find it concerning that their response is to "double its spending on Google paid search advertising in the last five months". I guarantee you they're seeing the same kind of traffic patterns in Bing as well. Nextag is just a whole bunch of click arbitrage silliness. Don't drink the kool-aid.