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You seriously believe Israel has conducted good-faith diplomatic endeavors for decades? A history of terrorattacks and extrajudicial killings in neighboring cou
by dr00tb 7mo ago
You seriously believe Israel has conducted good-faith diplomatic endeavors for decades? A history of terrorattacks and extrajudicial killings in neighboring countries and even European[1] countries tell a different story.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lillehammer_affair https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lillehammer_affair
- UltraSane 7mo agoI think Israel is fighting for its survival against enemies that would absolutely destroy it if they could.
- gravisultra 7mo ago[flagged]
- tastyface 7mo agoIs continuing to apply extreme violence against these enemies likely to lead to a good result? What is the end state? I think we are fast approaching an era where weapons of mass destruction, by way of cheap killbot swarms, are trivially accessible to any government. Without radical diplomacy, I fear the entire Middle East -- Israel included -- is on a path to annihilation.
- steve-atx-7600 7mo agoI think it can be as simple as if you defeat your enemy first, they can’t defeat you or continue to threaten you.
- tastyface 7mo agoDefeating an enemy to the extent that they can't drive a truck full of AI killbots into a busy city center is an impossible task barring a scorched earth approach. And if that option is on the table -- killing millions to secure Israel's future -- then Israel seals its fate regardless. Live by the sword, die by the sword. Old advice that continues to ring true.
- deleted 7mo ago[deleted]
- hollerith 7mo agoNon-Israelis also have people that can afford truckfuls of slaughter bots that would kill them if they could, so since Israel is cooked, we are all cooked, right?
- deleted 7mo ago[deleted]
- tastyface 7mo agoState-level groups in the same physical vicinity that have blood feuds and generational grievances against each other are quite possibly cooked, yes. I sincerely hope this can be preempted through diplomacy, but the prognosis is not good. The depopulated, fiber-laced front lines of Ukraine set the stage for all future war and terror.
- wolvoleo 7mo agoThat only works against nation states. After what Israel have done in Gaza there's thousands of people who have lost family in a gruesome way and now have an axe to grind against Israel. This way it'll never stop. The best way to prevent terrorism is to not give people reasons to want you dead. Look at all the ethnic conflicts in the world. Like the troubles in Ireland. Did that stop because one side threw more bombs? No, it stopped because both sides agreed to talk.
- spwa4 7mo agoReally? Because there's extensive counterexamples in both directions ... Europe attacked and even persecuted the Germans (with reason) for WW2. Tens of millions of victims. Neither side wants the other dead. US and Japan? Same. Most of these countries are allies. Israel has never even had much business with Indonesia, and only little with India. Yet a large number of Indonesians want to kill all Jews (not just Israeli) and Indians largely support Israel, even in war. Or take Lebanese. Despite Israel attacking them many times and giving them plenty of "reasons to want them dead", if you talk to actual Lebanese, most population groups (in fact the ones that suffered the most) want normal relations with Israel. It seems they blame some other party, even for the deaths directly at the hands of Israel ... So, none of these situations fit your theory. It's very obvious that the issues Israel has with a great many countries have nothing to do with "giving them reasons to want you dead". By contrast, there are countries who've given each other far better reasons to hate ... and yet don't want each other dead. In fact, I have trouble finding an example of nations that want to attack each other because of such a historical situation. Hell, the history of China and Japan for the last millenium is one of each nation taking turns conquering and terrorizing the other and yet ... the only fear Japanese and Chinese have is the communist party suddenly deciding to conquer some country and attack, which every Japanese and Chinese person is secretly 100% certain will be a total disaster, for China as a whole AND for them personally. And that gives the real reason behind conflicts: one party thinks they can just take what they want, and attacks, usually for ideological reasons. Sometimes they're right, mostly they're wrong.
- tastyface 7mo agoNot OP, but: peace between Germany and the rest of the West required a) millions slaughtered in war, b) an obvious big bad who got killed, c) relatively lenient and merciful occupation for years, and ultimately d) waiting for the Nazi generation to die out. I'm sure sharing a common cultural background helped a lot, too. And maybe a collective sense of optimism about the post-war world. I don't see many common elements with the situation in Gaza (and now Iran). A policy of "mowing the grass" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mowing_the_grass https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mowing_the_grass) will never lead to stability or warm and fuzzy feelings towards Israel.
- yongjik 7mo agoA nation fighting for its survival doesn't randomly escalate by attacking a much bigger enemy. Instead, we frequently see it from dictators with a delusion of grandeur.
- UltraSane 7mo ago"randomly escalate"? You DO realize how absurd this is. Iran isn't exactly subtle about its hatred for Israel and desire to destroy it and funding of the "Axis of Resistance".
- deleted 7mo ago[deleted]
- dogma1138 7mo agoIran attacked Israel directly twice, they are the ones which both escalated and miscalculated their position in the region.
- jcgrillo 7mo agoIs that not true of literally every country on Earth? It's just a question of how they do it.
- UltraSane 7mo agoAbsolutely not. No one is actively trying to destroy Canada or Australia the way Hamas and Hezbollah and Iran are trying to destroy Israel.
- tharmas 7mo agoNot to worry. If Israel's extinction is at risk that's when BB will use nukes.
- UltraSane 7mo agoWhy do people call him BB?
- goatlover 7mo agoThat's the rationale for Israel's aggressive behavior anyway. Find it increasingly hard to believe.
- UltraSane 7mo agoReally? Oct 7 2023 Hamas murdered 1200 people for no reason. Hamas charter states their goal is to destroy Israel. Iran very clearly states it wants to destroy Israel.
- alluro2 7mo agoFor "no reason" - hah, this must be the most blatant ignoring of reality I've seen in this thread, and that's a very high bar to cross. To be clear, I have nothing to do with neither Israel nor Iran, and am sympathetic to people of both separately - but pretending like Gaza - and what Israel has been doing for all this time there - doesn't exist is something else.
- UltraSane 7mo agoPlease explain why the hundreds of people at the concert deserved to be killed. Please explain why Hamas needed to parade the body of the young Germany woman they murdered like a hunting trophy?
- alluro2 7mo agoMoving the goalpost / strawman, and appeal to emotion. Please learn to discuss without resorting to these kinds of methods. All the best to you.
- UltraSane 7mo agoPlease explain why the hundreds of people at the concert deserved to be killed. Please explain why Hamas needed to parade the body of the young Germany woman they murdered like a hunting trophy? How do these actions help achieve Hamas goals? Unless their goals are really just killing as many Israelis as possible.
- spwa4 7mo agoSo wait ... you're going to use terror attacks and extrajudicial killings in foreign countries as an argument to defend Iran? Iran is responsible for the civil war in Lebanon, and thus for at least hundred thousand dead in extrajudicial killings. So your argument, even if we accept everything as 100% true ... Iran is at least 1000x more guilty than Israel. Or just take [1] ... So it seems strange to use this as an argument to defend Iran. Bad faith, even. As for diplomacy: Iran signs treaties ... then just refuses to uphold them. For example, Iran signed, then pretty openly violated it's nuclear non-proliferation treaty obligations [2], same with the famous nuclear deal. But, even where it comes to pretty basic things: Iran signed the human rights treaties, including the Geneva convention, and hangs gays and minors as a matter of course (according to amnesty #1 worldwide with hundreds of minors executed, and actually increasing the rate over time), attacks religious minorities, women, the government has a side business in kidnapping foreignors ... Or other treaties. Iran signed freedom of navigation treaties, and has for decades violated them. Hell, Iran violates the international telecommunications union treaty. The problem: Iran cannot be negotiated with, for the simple reason that they do not respect deals they make. There's no point in negotiating since their behavior does not change when they make deals. They make promises, and ignore them. They sign treaties, and boast openly about violating them. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_diplomat_terror_plot_trial https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_diplomat_terror_plot_t... [2] https://www.iaea.org/sites/default/files/25/06/gov2025-38.pdf https://www.iaea.org/sites/default/files/25/06/gov2025-38.pd...
- Hikikomori 7mo agoYou failed to mention that Iran violated the deal only after Trump withdrew the US from it... Its hard to negotiate with Iran when Israel keeps killing their negotiators.
- spwa4 7mo agoYes ... it's me that's failing to mention things, yes ...