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Being able to scale an image without losing quality is going to be handy. I always found it odd that scaling down an image now and then scaling it back to its o

by nickjj 7mo ago

Being able to scale an image without losing quality is going to be handy. I always found it odd that scaling down an image now and then scaling it back to its original size 2 seconds later with the same tool resulted in a loss of quality and having to delete the layer, then re-import the image to get the original quality back. This plugin https://github.com/LinuxBeaver/Gimp_Layer_Effects_Text_Styler_Plugin_GEGL_Effects/ https://github.com/LinuxBeaver/Gimp_Layer_Effects_Text_Style... also makes adding text effects with GIMP pretty good. This is unrelated to 3.2 but turned out to be a necessity for me.

vunderba 7mo ago
Nice - all actions performed on a layer should retain a hidden "raw original" so we get non-destructive transforms.
cmyk_student 7mo ago
It's because each transform was "destructive" (like filters use to be by default). What link & vector layers do instead is store a transform matrix, so each transform just updates the matrix instead of actually re-rasterizing the layer each time. We were hoping to expand that feature to all layer types for 3.2, but we ran out of time to properly test it for release. It'll like be finished for the next minor release.
- __mharrison__ 7mo ago
  It sounds like you are a gimp developer. Curious about the use of AI to work on it. Do the gimp devs use AI to write code?
  - locusofself 7mo ago
    I see you are getting downvoted but I don't blame you for this question. I've been curious about what developers of established products are doing with LLM assisted coding myself.
    - Alupis 7mo ago
      Like most of us, they're certainly using ai-assisted auto-complete and chat for thinking deep. I highly doubt they're vibe coding, which is how I interpret the parent's question and probably why they are being down voted.
      - __mharrison__ 7mo ago
        I take it you also mean vibe coding to be one shot and go?
      - selfhoster1312 7mo ago
        This is insulting to our craft, like going to a woodworkers convention and assuming "most of [them]" are using 3D-printers and laser cutters. Half the developers I know still don't use LSP (and they're not necessarily older devs), and even the full-time developers in my circle resist their bosses forcing Copilot or Claude down their throats and use in fact 0 AI. Living in France, i don't know a single developer using AI tools, except for drive-by pull-request submitters i have never met. I understand the world is nuanced and there are different dynamics at play, and my circles are not statistically representative of the world at large. Likewise, please don't assume this literally world-eating fad (AI) is what "most of us" are doing just because that's all the cool kids talk about.
        TiredOfLife 7mo ago
        Like 99.9999 of woodworkers already cheat by using metal and not wood tools
        selfhoster1312 7mo ago
        I didn't say using different technology was cheating, and metal tools are certainly part of woodworking for thousands of years so that's not really comparable. It's also very different because there's a qualitative change between metal woodworking tools and a laser cutter. The latter requires electricity and massive investments.
  - cmyk_student 7mo ago
    I can't speak for all of us, but generally no (in terms of GenAI at least). There are concerns about generated code not being compatible with GPL, and honestly a lot of the drive-by GenAI coded merge requests tend to not work.
- hagbard_c 7mo ago
  Many years ago I tested a native OS/2 image editor with this feature. It also made it possible to undo an individual transform or effect in the current stack while leaving the rest untouched. Will that be possible in Gimp as well?
  - cmyk_student 7mo ago
    Yes, it's planned for transform tools and already possible with filters. Technically our transform tools are already capable of this (they use GEGL operations the same as our non-destructive filters). We just need to tweak it to not immediately commit the transform, and then implement a UI.
    - 1718627440 7mo ago
      When does the final calculation happen then, at file save/export? Will be unexpected. Or does it end up in the final format? That's going to be a nightmare, because then you can't use GIMP to redact data anymore.
      - cmyk_student 7mo ago
        That's up to you. Right now filters work the same way - you can merge them automatically on creation, merge them at some point while working, or merge them on export. For formats like PSD, we'll eventually add the option to export as non-destructive filters as well. We don't want to take away choices - we just want to add more options for people's workflows.
Aardwolf 7mo ago
> I always found it odd that scaling down an image now and then scaling it back to its original size 2 seconds later with the same tool resulted in a loss of quality Maybe it's because I grew up with Paint Shop Pro 6 and such, but that seems completely normal and expected to me
- nickjj 7mo ago
  I was using Photoshop, I don't remember when exactly but it's probably in the 15-20 year range when non-destructive scaling was available. I don't remember not having it. Glad to see GIMP is moving in this direction.
enriquto 7mo ago
> I always found it odd that scaling down an image now and then scaling it back to its original size 2 seconds later with the same tool resulted in a loss of quality I'm honestly baffled at your surprise... say, if you crop an image, and 2 seconds later you enlarge it to its original size; do you expect to get the inital image back? Or a uniform color padding around your crop? Scaling is just cropping in the frequency domain. Behaviour should be the same.
- Timon3 7mo ago
  From a developer perspective you're obviously correct, but from a user perspective it doesn't make sense that the tool discards information, especially when competing tools don't do that. Of course as a developer that makes it all the more impressive - kudos to the team for making such big progress, I can't wait to play around with all the new improvements!
  - 1718627440 7mo ago
    Cropping IS a destructive operation. If the program isn't throwing information away, then it doesn't actually do cropping, but some different operation instead. From a user perspective I wouldn't like it, if I were to crop something and the data would be still there afterwards. That would be a data leak waiting to happen.
    - Timon3 7mo ago
      I genuinely can't empathize with this objection. To me it's basically the same as arguing against Undo/Redo in a text editor because someone could come along and press Undo on my keyboard after I've deleted sensitive data. What percentage of users sends around raw project files from which they've cropped out sensitive data to users who shouldn't see that data, vs. what percentage of users ever wants to adjust the crop after applying other filters? The latter is basically everyone, the earlier I'm guessing at most 1%?
      - enriquto 7mo ago

by nickjj 7mo ago

vunderba 7mo ago

Nice - all actions performed on a layer should retain a hidden "raw original" so we get non-destructive transforms.

cmyk_student 7mo ago

It's because each transform was "destructive" (like filters use to be by default). What link & vector layers do instead is store a transform matrix, so each transform just updates the matrix instead of actually re-rasterizing the layer each time. We were hoping to expand that feature to all layer types for 3.2, but we ran out of time to properly test it for release. It'll like be finished for the next minor release.

__mharrison__ 7mo ago
It sounds like you are a gimp developer. Curious about the use of AI to work on it. Do the gimp devs use AI to write code?
- locusofself 7mo ago
  I see you are getting downvoted but I don't blame you for this question. I've been curious about what developers of established products are doing with LLM assisted coding myself.
  - Alupis 7mo ago
    Like most of us, they're certainly using ai-assisted auto-complete and chat for thinking deep. I highly doubt they're vibe coding, which is how I interpret the parent's question and probably why they are being down voted.
    - __mharrison__ 7mo ago
      I take it you also mean vibe coding to be one shot and go?
    - selfhoster1312 7mo ago
      This is insulting to our craft, like going to a woodworkers convention and assuming "most of [them]" are using 3D-printers and laser cutters. Half the developers I know still don't use LSP (and they're not necessarily older devs), and even the full-time developers in my circle resist their bosses forcing Copilot or Claude down their throats and use in fact 0 AI. Living in France, i don't know a single developer using AI tools, except for drive-by pull-request submitters i have never met. I understand the world is nuanced and there are different dynamics at play, and my circles are not statistically representative of the world at large. Likewise, please don't assume this literally world-eating fad (AI) is what "most of us" are doing just because that's all the cool kids talk about.
      - TiredOfLife 7mo ago
        Like 99.9999 of woodworkers already cheat by using metal and not wood tools
        selfhoster1312 7mo ago
        I didn't say using different technology was cheating, and metal tools are certainly part of woodworking for thousands of years so that's not really comparable. It's also very different because there's a qualitative change between metal woodworking tools and a laser cutter. The latter requires electricity and massive investments.
- cmyk_student 7mo ago
  I can't speak for all of us, but generally no (in terms of GenAI at least). There are concerns about generated code not being compatible with GPL, and honestly a lot of the drive-by GenAI coded merge requests tend to not work.
hagbard_c 7mo ago
Many years ago I tested a native OS/2 image editor with this feature. It also made it possible to undo an individual transform or effect in the current stack while leaving the rest untouched. Will that be possible in Gimp as well?
- cmyk_student 7mo ago
  Yes, it's planned for transform tools and already possible with filters. Technically our transform tools are already capable of this (they use GEGL operations the same as our non-destructive filters). We just need to tweak it to not immediately commit the transform, and then implement a UI.
  - 1718627440 7mo ago
    When does the final calculation happen then, at file save/export? Will be unexpected. Or does it end up in the final format? That's going to be a nightmare, because then you can't use GIMP to redact data anymore.
    - cmyk_student 7mo ago
      That's up to you. Right now filters work the same way - you can merge them automatically on creation, merge them at some point while working, or merge them on export. For formats like PSD, we'll eventually add the option to export as non-destructive filters as well. We don't want to take away choices - we just want to add more options for people's workflows.

Aardwolf 7mo ago

> I always found it odd that scaling down an image now and then scaling it back to its original size 2 seconds later with the same tool resulted in a loss of quality Maybe it's because I grew up with Paint Shop Pro 6 and such, but that seems completely normal and expected to me

nickjj 7mo ago
I was using Photoshop, I don't remember when exactly but it's probably in the 15-20 year range when non-destructive scaling was available. I don't remember not having it. Glad to see GIMP is moving in this direction.

enriquto 7mo ago

> I always found it odd that scaling down an image now and then scaling it back to its original size 2 seconds later with the same tool resulted in a loss of quality I'm honestly baffled at your surprise... say, if you crop an image, and 2 seconds later you enlarge it to its original size; do you expect to get the inital image back? Or a uniform color padding around your crop? Scaling is just cropping in the frequency domain. Behaviour should be the same.

Timon3 7mo ago
From a developer perspective you're obviously correct, but from a user perspective it doesn't make sense that the tool discards information, especially when competing tools don't do that. Of course as a developer that makes it all the more impressive - kudos to the team for making such big progress, I can't wait to play around with all the new improvements!
- 1718627440 7mo ago
  Cropping IS a destructive operation. If the program isn't throwing information away, then it doesn't actually do cropping, but some different operation instead. From a user perspective I wouldn't like it, if I were to crop something and the data would be still there afterwards. That would be a data leak waiting to happen.
  - Timon3 7mo ago
    I genuinely can't empathize with this objection. To me it's basically the same as arguing against Undo/Redo in a text editor because someone could come along and press Undo on my keyboard after I've deleted sensitive data. What percentage of users sends around raw project files from which they've cropped out sensitive data to users who shouldn't see that data, vs. what percentage of users ever wants to adjust the crop after applying other filters? The latter is basically everyone, the earlier I'm guessing at most 1%?
    - enriquto 7mo ago