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That's a luxury you get when your society has reached a certain level of stability.

gjsman-1000 7mo ago
Everything is that way. Another example: Feminism? Only happened with women in the workforce. Women in the workforce? Only when the Industrial Revolution happened and the economy could support the roles. Industrial Revolution? Only happened when farming and trading got good enough that 90% of the population didn’t need to be farmers first. Very few moral enlightenments have ever actually happened absent economic preconditions, or would not be reversed if the conditions degraded.
- watwut 7mo ago
  > Feminism? Only happened with women in the workforce. That is not how it was. First, women were actually working and producing the whole time - but with much more limited options. It is not like they would twiddle thumbs bored prior industrial revolution. And second, the politically succesfull feminism happened mostly with women who were middle class, not allowed to work and wanted more ambitious jobs.
mmooss 7mo ago
People's rights are not luxuries, but the purpose of government: "... to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men ...". They are a necessity to achieve freedom and stability.
- deleted 7mo ago
  [deleted]
- nchmy 7mo ago
  Are you at all aware of the hellscape that is Haiti...?
  - mmooss 7mo ago
    Yes, that's all the more reason they need a real government that protects people's rights. The anti-freedom crowd always finds an excuse to disregard others' rights, liberty, and welfare, to impose what they want to do on others. They do it in the US too. Plenty of places like Haiti just put civilians in the battleground between two equal and equally bad sides, the military and the insurgents. Both sides give the same excuse why they maim and murder civilians, which doesn't begin to address the damage to property and welfare. In Iraq, for example, the US finally stabilized things when they adopted an effective and acceptable anti-insurgent strategy (led by David Petraeus): Protect the population.
    - jkman 7mo ago
      That is naive. 'they need a real government that protects people's rights' and this government will magically materialize out of thin air and institute an island paradise, right? You can't even meaningfully discuss a real 'military' in Haiti, it is a failed state with minimal control of even their capital city.
      - mmooss 7mo ago
        > naive Exactly the words used by the enemies of freedom: 'It's naive!' It's predictable. Nobody said anything about easy. Murdering civilians is easy, I suppose, but not a route to a solution nor an acceptable means.
        deleted 7mo ago
        [deleted]
        HuaraHuara2 7mo ago
        America has always been blessed with great geography, natural resources, an educated populace, and an inventive, optimistic spirit. That is to say, Americans have never suffered and as such, cannot comprehend suffering. Thus Americans are blind and naive to injustices they have never faced.
- blell 7mo ago
  What government? Do you know anything about Haiti?
- HDThoreaun 7mo ago
  Natural rights do not exist. There is nothing natural about freedom. Every right we have we fought tirelessly for. If we forget the struggle we went through to obtain freedom we can easily abandon the cause and lose that freedom.
  - mmooss 7mo ago
    While I mostly agree, freedom as a universal right does exist; not everyone can exercise it, but that doesn't make it less of a right. And it is 'natural' in the sense that it is valued ~~ universally. I can't establish objectively that it is valued everywhere, of course; I can establish that people en masse have valued it and fought for it all over the world, from Europe to South Asia to SE Asia to East Asia; in Africa, to all of the Americas.
    - HDThoreaun 7mo ago
      Well the issue here is that value is a spectrum. Having rights involves trade offs, take a look at singapore. I do not think it is in any way self evident that all people value each of their rights the way that you do. In el salvador the people gladly gave up their rights to obtain order, and now they have one of the most popular governments in the world even though they do not have very much freedom at all. For you to carte blanche say the el salvandorans are wrong to be happy with that trade off is naive and incredibly paternalistic. The same is true of the situation in Haiti.
      - mmooss 7mo ago
        These are the same old argument that the dictators have made for generations. 'People here don't value freedom'; 'it's just your opinion'. They are called universal rights for a reason, and finding one popular dictator (in a world of fascist propaganda) while democracy and freedom have swept the world is not significant. And if you say, who are you or am I to tell them what they value? Who are the dictators? If we can't morally, then you agree they have a right to self-determination, or freedom.
        7mo ago

Everything is that way. Another example: Feminism? Only happened with women in the workforce. Women in the workforce? Only when the Industrial Revolution happened and the economy could support the roles. Industrial Revolution? Only happened when farming and trading got good enough that 90% of the population didn’t need to be farmers first. Very few moral enlightenments have ever actually happened absent economic preconditions, or would not be reversed if the conditions degraded.

watwut 7mo ago
> Feminism? Only happened with women in the workforce. That is not how it was. First, women were actually working and producing the whole time - but with much more limited options. It is not like they would twiddle thumbs bored prior industrial revolution. And second, the politically succesfull feminism happened mostly with women who were middle class, not allowed to work and wanted more ambitious jobs.

mmooss 7mo ago

People's rights are not luxuries, but the purpose of government: "... to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men ...". They are a necessity to achieve freedom and stability.

deleted 7mo ago
[deleted]
nchmy 7mo ago
Are you at all aware of the hellscape that is Haiti...?
- mmooss 7mo ago
  Yes, that's all the more reason they need a real government that protects people's rights. The anti-freedom crowd always finds an excuse to disregard others' rights, liberty, and welfare, to impose what they want to do on others. They do it in the US too. Plenty of places like Haiti just put civilians in the battleground between two equal and equally bad sides, the military and the insurgents. Both sides give the same excuse why they maim and murder civilians, which doesn't begin to address the damage to property and welfare. In Iraq, for example, the US finally stabilized things when they adopted an effective and acceptable anti-insurgent strategy (led by David Petraeus): Protect the population.
  - jkman 7mo ago
    That is naive. 'they need a real government that protects people's rights' and this government will magically materialize out of thin air and institute an island paradise, right? You can't even meaningfully discuss a real 'military' in Haiti, it is a failed state with minimal control of even their capital city.
    - mmooss 7mo ago
      > naive Exactly the words used by the enemies of freedom: 'It's naive!' It's predictable. Nobody said anything about easy. Murdering civilians is easy, I suppose, but not a route to a solution nor an acceptable means.
      - deleted 7mo ago
        [deleted]
      - HuaraHuara2 7mo ago
        America has always been blessed with great geography, natural resources, an educated populace, and an inventive, optimistic spirit. That is to say, Americans have never suffered and as such, cannot comprehend suffering. Thus Americans are blind and naive to injustices they have never faced.
blell 7mo ago
What government? Do you know anything about Haiti?
HDThoreaun 7mo ago
Natural rights do not exist. There is nothing natural about freedom. Every right we have we fought tirelessly for. If we forget the struggle we went through to obtain freedom we can easily abandon the cause and lose that freedom.
- mmooss 7mo ago
  While I mostly agree, freedom as a universal right does exist; not everyone can exercise it, but that doesn't make it less of a right. And it is 'natural' in the sense that it is valued ~~ universally. I can't establish objectively that it is valued everywhere, of course; I can establish that people en masse have valued it and fought for it all over the world, from Europe to South Asia to SE Asia to East Asia; in Africa, to all of the Americas.
  - HDThoreaun 7mo ago
    Well the issue here is that value is a spectrum. Having rights involves trade offs, take a look at singapore. I do not think it is in any way self evident that all people value each of their rights the way that you do. In el salvador the people gladly gave up their rights to obtain order, and now they have one of the most popular governments in the world even though they do not have very much freedom at all. For you to carte blanche say the el salvandorans are wrong to be happy with that trade off is naive and incredibly paternalistic. The same is true of the situation in Haiti.
    - mmooss 7mo ago
      These are the same old argument that the dictators have made for generations. 'People here don't value freedom'; 'it's just your opinion'. They are called universal rights for a reason, and finding one popular dictator (in a world of fascist propaganda) while democracy and freedom have swept the world is not significant. And if you say, who are you or am I to tell them what they value? Who are the dictators? If we can't morally, then you agree they have a right to self-determination, or freedom.
      - 7mo ago