5 ms·

In my opinion, gut microbiome stuff is massively overhyped. Here's a study that tried fecal transplants to treat mental illness (and found no effect): https://

by slibhb 7mo ago

In my opinion, gut microbiome stuff is massively overhyped. Here's a study that tried fecal transplants to treat mental illness (and found no effect): https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/41785480/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/41785480/ The pattern with this stuff is that, when a blinded study is carried out, there's usually no effect.

andrewl 7mo ago
Replying to slibhb, while the research involving mental illness is not conclusive, fecal transplants are a known and accepted treatment for persistent C. diff (Clostridioides difficile) infection. Just for the record.
- idiotsecant 7mo ago
  This seems like it makes way, way more sense
butILoveLife 7mo ago
You are probably right on the specifics, but serotonin is produced/located in the gut, and its an incredibly important neurotransmitter. One day people will figure out how to use these correctly.
- Aurornis 7mo ago
  > but serotonin is produced/located in the gut, and its an incredibly important neurotransmitter. Serotonin in the gut doesn’t go to your brain. It serves a different function in the gut. The brain synthesizes serotonin inside of the brain. It doesn’t come from your gut.
  - ChimpWithHat 7mo ago
    Thanks for following up with a correction. This is a myth that simply refuses to die. I cannot even count the number of times I’ve heard people repeating it.
esperent 7mo ago
Here's a meta analysis of 12 studies showing that FMT has a significant effect in reducing depression: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC12536323/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC12536323/ It also found the effect was greater in people with IBS.
- BizarroLand 7mo ago
  I wonder how that study would fare against a double blind where some people get FMT and others do not, but they are both given the same attention and care otherwise over the course of the study?
- Aurornis 7mo ago
  This meta-analysis isn’t very convincing. Most of the studies included were primarily about other measures like IBS, COVID-related GI symptoms, or Fibromyalgia. Improving GI problems would be expected to improve mood. The positive result is heavily driven by an outlier study on Fibromyalgia that has results that look a little too suspicious relative to the other studies.
  - codethief 7mo ago
    > Improving GI problems would be expected to improve mood. While improving GI problems might improve your mood, I don't think it is accurate to equate depression with "bad mood". A friend of mine has IBS and while her GI problems are under control most of the time, she still gets hit hard by depressive episodes.
ChimpWithHat 7mo ago
I think mainstream is mostly looking at the microbiome stuff wrong. Your microbiome is the downstream proxy of good lifestyle habits, not generally something to directly manage. Good diet, exercise, reducing stress, and sleeping well will improve digestion and all the downstream variables like microbiome, physical health, and mental health. This is basic ecology, the bacterial population dynamics in your colon are a direct result of substrate availability. If it’s primarily fiber, polyphenols, and other indigestible plant compounds reaching the colon you’ll likely have a healthy microbiome. If instead you malabsorb food from poor lifestyle factors and have macronutrients reaching the colon they’ll probably fuel blooms of pathogens. I think microbiome researchers need to talk with ecologists more to help advance the field out of the myopia it’s in. FMT does appear useful for special cases of infection like c-diff, but I think that’s led people to believe it’s a generally health promoting practice, when the research simply does not show it.
- adaptbrian 7mo ago
  It certainly anecdotal, but feels like you can positively effect your gut microbiome for example by riding a horse. Ive read research about how other mammals can share their microbiomes with humans, if its not the horses biome then what is it that so satisfingly calming post ride. Would love to be enlightened. Ride a horse if you need to destress, amazing creatures.
  - woleium 7mo ago
    i guess in that case, washing woth soap everyday is probably a negative factor?
    - ninalanyon 7mo ago
      Washing with soap everyday unless you are very dirty is indeed negative and can dry your skin. Especially as most of what is called soap now is not soap but a very complex collection of synthetic organic chemicals. Exactly how negative it is though is difficult to determine and probably varies from person to person.
  - 7mo ago
meindnoch 7mo ago
>The pattern with this stuff is that, when a blinded study is carried out, there's usually no effect. It must be the case that these microbes need the subject to be aware of their presence! Maybe the microbes have consciousness, and for the treatment to work, the microbes' consciousness has to entangle (via quantum mechanisms) with the subject's consciousness? Blind studies prevent this quantum entanglement to form, that's why the treatment stops working. We definitely need more research in this direction!
RobotToaster 7mo ago
They found a 15 point MADRS change in the placebo group, that's huge, it's only a 60 point scale, and more than the average SSRI produces. Either the procedure itself is doing something or something isn't right with the study. Also one issue with all of these studies is they only look at averages and don't do subgroup analysis. It may be that a few patients have an underlying condition causing depression that is highly responsive to these interventions, while it has no effect on the others.

by slibhb 7mo ago

andrewl 7mo ago

Replying to slibhb, while the research involving mental illness is not conclusive, fecal transplants are a known and accepted treatment for persistent C. diff (Clostridioides difficile) infection. Just for the record.

idiotsecant 7mo ago
This seems like it makes way, way more sense

butILoveLife 7mo ago

You are probably right on the specifics, but serotonin is produced/located in the gut, and its an incredibly important neurotransmitter. One day people will figure out how to use these correctly.

Aurornis 7mo ago
> but serotonin is produced/located in the gut, and its an incredibly important neurotransmitter. Serotonin in the gut doesn’t go to your brain. It serves a different function in the gut. The brain synthesizes serotonin inside of the brain. It doesn’t come from your gut.
- ChimpWithHat 7mo ago
  Thanks for following up with a correction. This is a myth that simply refuses to die. I cannot even count the number of times I’ve heard people repeating it.

esperent 7mo ago

Here's a meta analysis of 12 studies showing that FMT has a significant effect in reducing depression: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC12536323/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC12536323/ It also found the effect was greater in people with IBS.

BizarroLand 7mo ago
I wonder how that study would fare against a double blind where some people get FMT and others do not, but they are both given the same attention and care otherwise over the course of the study?
Aurornis 7mo ago
This meta-analysis isn’t very convincing. Most of the studies included were primarily about other measures like IBS, COVID-related GI symptoms, or Fibromyalgia. Improving GI problems would be expected to improve mood. The positive result is heavily driven by an outlier study on Fibromyalgia that has results that look a little too suspicious relative to the other studies.
- codethief 7mo ago
  > Improving GI problems would be expected to improve mood. While improving GI problems might improve your mood, I don't think it is accurate to equate depression with "bad mood". A friend of mine has IBS and while her GI problems are under control most of the time, she still gets hit hard by depressive episodes.

ChimpWithHat 7mo ago

I think mainstream is mostly looking at the microbiome stuff wrong. Your microbiome is the downstream proxy of good lifestyle habits, not generally something to directly manage. Good diet, exercise, reducing stress, and sleeping well will improve digestion and all the downstream variables like microbiome, physical health, and mental health. This is basic ecology, the bacterial population dynamics in your colon are a direct result of substrate availability. If it’s primarily fiber, polyphenols, and other indigestible plant compounds reaching the colon you’ll likely have a healthy microbiome. If instead you malabsorb food from poor lifestyle factors and have macronutrients reaching the colon they’ll probably fuel blooms of pathogens. I think microbiome researchers need to talk with ecologists more to help advance the field out of the myopia it’s in. FMT does appear useful for special cases of infection like c-diff, but I think that’s led people to believe it’s a generally health promoting practice, when the research simply does not show it.

adaptbrian 7mo ago
It certainly anecdotal, but feels like you can positively effect your gut microbiome for example by riding a horse. Ive read research about how other mammals can share their microbiomes with humans, if its not the horses biome then what is it that so satisfingly calming post ride. Would love to be enlightened. Ride a horse if you need to destress, amazing creatures.
- woleium 7mo ago
  i guess in that case, washing woth soap everyday is probably a negative factor?
  - ninalanyon 7mo ago
    Washing with soap everyday unless you are very dirty is indeed negative and can dry your skin. Especially as most of what is called soap now is not soap but a very complex collection of synthetic organic chemicals. Exactly how negative it is though is difficult to determine and probably varies from person to person.
- 7mo ago

meindnoch 7mo ago

>The pattern with this stuff is that, when a blinded study is carried out, there's usually no effect. It must be the case that these microbes need the subject to be aware of their presence! Maybe the microbes have consciousness, and for the treatment to work, the microbes' consciousness has to entangle (via quantum mechanisms) with the subject's consciousness? Blind studies prevent this quantum entanglement to form, that's why the treatment stops working. We definitely need more research in this direction!

RobotToaster 7mo ago

They found a 15 point MADRS change in the placebo group, that's huge, it's only a 60 point scale, and more than the average SSRI produces. Either the procedure itself is doing something or something isn't right with the study. Also one issue with all of these studies is they only look at averages and don't do subgroup analysis. It may be that a few patients have an underlying condition causing depression that is highly responsive to these interventions, while it has no effect on the others.