4 ms·

> Just like with IPv6. Yes, but the compatibility is very very easy to support for both hardware vendors, softwares, sysadmins etc. Some things might need a ge

by bmacho 7mo ago

> Just like with IPv6. Yes, but the compatibility is very very easy to support for both hardware vendors, softwares, sysadmins etc. Some things might need a gentle stroke (mostly just enlarge a single bitfield) but after that everything just works, hardware, software, websites, operators. A protocol is a social problem, and ipv6 fails exactly there.

Gigachad 7mo ago
What slowed ipv6 wasn’t the design of ipv6, it was the invention of NAT and CGNAT. Even still. The rollout is still progressing, and new systems like Matter are IPv6 only.
- bigstrat2003 7mo ago
  What stymies IPv6 is human laziness more than anything else. It's not hard to set up. Every network I run has been dual stack for 10 years now, with minimal additional effort. People are just too lazy to put forth even a minimal effort when they believe that there's no payoff to it.
  - XorNot 7mo ago
    This goes the other direction too. I just this second fixed a problem with incredibly slow SSH connections because a host lookup which returned an IPv4 address instantly was waiting 10+ seconds for an IPv6 response which would never come. Now I'm sure I can fix DNSmasq to do something sensible here, but the defaults didn't even break - they worked in the most annoying way possible where had I just disabled IPv6 that would've fixed the entire problem right away. Dual stack has some incredibly stupid defaults.
    - iso1631 7mo ago
      > Dual stack has some incredibly stupid defaults. Dual stack is the problem, and it's not going away in the next 20 years. Single stack ipv4, fine, if your applications support it then great. Single stack ipv6, fine, if your applications support it then great. Dual stack is just horrendous, you can never be sure what stack you're on when you work at a higher level.
    - Dagger2 7mo ago
      If your DNS server isn't replying to requests, your DNS server is broken. That has nothing to do with v6.
      - jampekka 7mo ago
        If the problem gets fixed by simply disabling v6, it has much to do with v6.
        Dagger2 7mo ago
        It might get hidden by disabling v6, but not fixed. And if your DNS server fails to reply to an AAAA lookup over v4, that's 100% not a v6 problem.
  - jampekka 7mo ago
    > People are just too lazy to put forth even a minimal effort when they believe that there's no payoff to it. For me just disabling IPv6 has given the biggest payoff. Life is too short to waste time debugging obscure IPv6 problems that still routinely pop up after over 30 years of development. Ever since OpenVPN silently routed IPv6 over clearnet I've just disabled it whenever I can.
  - akersten 7mo ago
    > What stymies IPv6 is human laziness more than anything else. It's not hard to set up. I think the biggest barrier to IPv6 adoption is that this is just categorically untrue and people keep insisting that it isn't, reducing the chance that I'd make conscious efforts to try to grok it. I've had dozens of weird network issues in the last few years that have all been solved by simply turning off IPv6. From hosts taking 20 seconds to respond, to things not connecting 40% of the time, DHCP leases not working, devices not able to find the printer on the network, everything simply works better on IPv4, and I don't think it's just me. I don't think these sort of issues should be happening for a protocol that has had 30 years to mature. At a certain point we have to look and wonder if the design itself is just too complicated and contributes to its own failure to thrive, instead of blaming lazy humans.
    - ectospheno 7mo ago
      Yes, if you can’t properly setup a network now then IPv6 won’t help you. That isn’t IPv6’s fault.
    - Froedlich 7mo ago
      Sage Accounting is prone to various connectivity gollywobbles between the server and workstations. The first troubleshooting recommendation is to turn off IPv6. About 75% of that time, the problem then goes away.
      - Dagger2 7mo ago
        If you disable the NIC, the problem goes away 100% of the time. Don't blame v6 for problems with your network.
LoganDark 7mo ago
I'm confused by the argument that replacing equipment is something that is always possible. It doesn't matter that it's easy to support by updating or replacing the hardware - a lot of hardware isn't going to be updated or replaced.
- pocksuppet 7mo ago
  ISPs are used to this though, and tunnel a lot of packets. If you have DSL at home, your ISP doesn't have a router in every edge cabinet - your DSL router sets up a layer-2 point-to-point tunnel to the ISP's nearest BRAS (broadband remote access server) in a central location. All IP routing happens there. Because it's a layer-2 tunnel it looks like your router is directly connected to the BRAS, even though there are many devices in between. I don't know how it's done on CATV and fiber access networks. If an ISP uses an MPLS core, every POP establishes a tunnel to every other POP. IP routing happens only at the source POP as it chooses which pre-established tunnel to use. If an ISP is very new, it likely has an IPv6-only core, and IPv4 packets are tunneled through it. If an ISP is very old, with an IPv4-only core, it can do the reverse and tunnel IPv6 packets through IPv4. It can even use private addresses for the intermediate nodes as they won't be seen outside the network.

by bmacho 7mo ago

Gigachad 7mo ago

What slowed ipv6 wasn’t the design of ipv6, it was the invention of NAT and CGNAT. Even still. The rollout is still progressing, and new systems like Matter are IPv6 only.

bigstrat2003 7mo ago
What stymies IPv6 is human laziness more than anything else. It's not hard to set up. Every network I run has been dual stack for 10 years now, with minimal additional effort. People are just too lazy to put forth even a minimal effort when they believe that there's no payoff to it.
- XorNot 7mo ago
  This goes the other direction too. I just this second fixed a problem with incredibly slow SSH connections because a host lookup which returned an IPv4 address instantly was waiting 10+ seconds for an IPv6 response which would never come. Now I'm sure I can fix DNSmasq to do something sensible here, but the defaults didn't even break - they worked in the most annoying way possible where had I just disabled IPv6 that would've fixed the entire problem right away. Dual stack has some incredibly stupid defaults.
  - iso1631 7mo ago
    > Dual stack has some incredibly stupid defaults. Dual stack is the problem, and it's not going away in the next 20 years. Single stack ipv4, fine, if your applications support it then great. Single stack ipv6, fine, if your applications support it then great. Dual stack is just horrendous, you can never be sure what stack you're on when you work at a higher level.
  - Dagger2 7mo ago
    If your DNS server isn't replying to requests, your DNS server is broken. That has nothing to do with v6.
    - jampekka 7mo ago
      If the problem gets fixed by simply disabling v6, it has much to do with v6.
      - Dagger2 7mo ago
        It might get hidden by disabling v6, but not fixed. And if your DNS server fails to reply to an AAAA lookup over v4, that's 100% not a v6 problem.
- jampekka 7mo ago
  > People are just too lazy to put forth even a minimal effort when they believe that there's no payoff to it. For me just disabling IPv6 has given the biggest payoff. Life is too short to waste time debugging obscure IPv6 problems that still routinely pop up after over 30 years of development. Ever since OpenVPN silently routed IPv6 over clearnet I've just disabled it whenever I can.
- akersten 7mo ago
  > What stymies IPv6 is human laziness more than anything else. It's not hard to set up. I think the biggest barrier to IPv6 adoption is that this is just categorically untrue and people keep insisting that it isn't, reducing the chance that I'd make conscious efforts to try to grok it. I've had dozens of weird network issues in the last few years that have all been solved by simply turning off IPv6. From hosts taking 20 seconds to respond, to things not connecting 40% of the time, DHCP leases not working, devices not able to find the printer on the network, everything simply works better on IPv4, and I don't think it's just me. I don't think these sort of issues should be happening for a protocol that has had 30 years to mature. At a certain point we have to look and wonder if the design itself is just too complicated and contributes to its own failure to thrive, instead of blaming lazy humans.
  - ectospheno 7mo ago
    Yes, if you can’t properly setup a network now then IPv6 won’t help you. That isn’t IPv6’s fault.
  - Froedlich 7mo ago
    Sage Accounting is prone to various connectivity gollywobbles between the server and workstations. The first troubleshooting recommendation is to turn off IPv6. About 75% of that time, the problem then goes away.
    - Dagger2 7mo ago
      If you disable the NIC, the problem goes away 100% of the time. Don't blame v6 for problems with your network.

LoganDark 7mo ago

I'm confused by the argument that replacing equipment is something that is always possible. It doesn't matter that it's easy to support by updating or replacing the hardware - a lot of hardware isn't going to be updated or replaced.

pocksuppet 7mo ago
ISPs are used to this though, and tunnel a lot of packets. If you have DSL at home, your ISP doesn't have a router in every edge cabinet - your DSL router sets up a layer-2 point-to-point tunnel to the ISP's nearest BRAS (broadband remote access server) in a central location. All IP routing happens there. Because it's a layer-2 tunnel it looks like your router is directly connected to the BRAS, even though there are many devices in between. I don't know how it's done on CATV and fiber access networks. If an ISP uses an MPLS core, every POP establishes a tunnel to every other POP. IP routing happens only at the source POP as it chooses which pre-established tunnel to use. If an ISP is very new, it likely has an IPv6-only core, and IPv4 packets are tunneled through it. If an ISP is very old, with an IPv4-only core, it can do the reverse and tunnel IPv6 packets through IPv4. It can even use private addresses for the intermediate nodes as they won't be seen outside the network.