5 ms·

Let me guess. Jeff/Andy make a donation to a certain someone. Tariffs on Italy are threatened. Case is dropped.

by mcs5280 7mo ago

robtherobber 7mo ago
I think that normally that may be the approach (and I'm not singling out Italy for this, it probably applies to most countries). On this occasion, however: > In all previous cases involving other international groups, once a settlement was reached and payment made, prosecutors closed related criminal investigations, either through plea deals or by dropping the cases. > This time, however, Milan prosecutors did not share the tax authority's approach and decided to press ahead with their probe, leading to a request that the suspects be sent to trial.
- mr_00ff00 7mo ago
  Damn, is anyone an expert that can speak to the criminal law involved here? It’s crazy that executives can jump around the law and not face any criminal charges, then the company picks up the bill (although I’m not ignorant thinking this isn’t usual) I’m just curious to learn more about how often this is the case and you usually what happens with people afterward
  - nobodyandproud 7mo ago
    While I share your sentiment, perhaps its better that it remain murky to give prosecutors a chance to succeed.
  - limagnolia 7mo ago
    I don't know about Italian law, but in the US tax evasion is pretty difficult in many cases to prove. It is illegal in the US to deliberately defraud the IRS to evade paying taxes, it is not illegal to make a mistake, or claim a deduction you think you can claim when the IRS decides you can't, etc. So prosecutors must prove you had an intent to evade taxes you knew you owed. Because they can rarely meet that bar, criminal charges are rarely brought.
    - lormayna 7mo ago
      In Italy, if you are charged of tax evasion, you need to demonstrate that you are not evading. It's called "inversion proof"
      - keeganpoppen 7mo ago
        that seems terrible
        barbazoo 7mo ago
        Doesn't seem to be universal but applied narrowly for example for financial crimes.
        pas 7mo ago
        it's for the civil part. (so you need to show the tax office some paper trail that you based your filings on. invoices, bills, contracts, emails, receipts. and if they are formally okay, then the tax agency has to show that they are just fake papers.) as far as I understand the criminal part still considers intent and so on (and has a higher standard for burden of proof), but if you file for VAT return and then you have zero invoices (and so the numbers simply don't add up) the court can easily find that there was intent to defraud the state. (and then sentencing is based on the amount of damages.)
zoobab 7mo ago
"Tariffs on Italy are threatened. Case is dropped." Justice is independent in most EU countries.
- cbg0 7mo ago
  There's quite a few asterisks that need to be appended to "independent".
  - gpderetta 7mo ago
    It is quite independent in Italy actually. The government is pushing for a constitutional amendment to help "fix" this feature. There is going to be a referendum on the change very soon.
    - N19PEDL2 7mo ago
      For reference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2026_Italian_constitutional_referendum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2026_Italian_constitutional_re...
    - jonathanlydall 7mo ago
      I have ancestral Italian Citizenship but have never lived in Italy. I am occasionally called upon by the local consulate to perform my civic duty and vote. Just this week I sent them back my ballot, now marked, for this referendum in a sealed envelope. This referendum required me to dig more deeply than usual into Italian politics before I could decide which way I wanted to vote.
    - mr_00ff00 7mo ago
      I am familiar with this but thought it was for separating prosecutors from judges? Is this some indirect effect of that?
      - riffraff 7mo ago
        the current reform is complicated, and reasonable people can disagree on how to vote, but it goes a bit further than separating prosecutors from judges. Namely, it also changes the self-regulating body (the CSM, Consiglio Superiore della Magistratura) of the judiciary so that the government and parliament have a bit more authority and the judiciary have a bit less: the organ is split in two, its judiciary members are no longer elected but picked randomly while a part is decided by the political side, and there's an even higher special tribunal. Proponents say this is necessary, opponents say this is leading towards stronger power of the political majority over the judiciary.
napolux 7mo ago
It usually works more like: - we want 1.4B, but it will take 10 years in courts - best I can do is 800M (or even lower) - ok, we'll take it source: I'm italian and many tech giants did this already. Apple opened an academy in Naples too.
- epolanski 7mo ago
  Not only tech giants, everybody from celebrities to random Joes can get away with it. My mother's husband owed 70k+ EUR in taxes and at some point the judge proposed and he agreed to 2800 euros. The trick is to not have a bank account in your name only, you have it joint with a child/spouse and they can't take your money. Nor they can take your house, if you only have one. Eventually under those situations the judges try to take anything rather than nothing. I'm not defending this situation, just saying it's widespread and the fact that every two governments come one that does a "condono", which is essentially "let's agree with tax evaders for some 50% of the tax they owe so they are happy and we see something" doesn't help. Harsher punishment should be warranted, but you can't go to prison for tax evasion.
  - sheiyei 7mo ago
    You 100% should be able to go to prison from tax evasion. Not to fill prisons just to line prison owners' pockets like in the US, but definitely have the possibility for egregious offences.
    - keeganpoppen 7mo ago
      you can… it’s just not really clear that anyone does. that said, i think if you polled the average joe on the street, they would overwhelmingly say that you can, which is probably a net gain for society.
    - epolanski 7mo ago
      > You 100% should be able to go to prison from tax evasion. I said can't, not shouldn't. In any case I'd still say it's arguable if the punishment matches the crime, I'm not saying I'm against it but I don't fully buy it either. In Italy we have two law codes: criminal and civil. You can't go to prison for civil offenses like tax evasion in our system.

Let me guess. Jeff/Andy make a donation to a certain someone. Tariffs on Italy are threatened. Case is dropped.

by mcs5280 7mo ago

Let me guess. Jeff/Andy make a donation to a certain someone. Tariffs on Italy are threatened. Case is dropped.

I think that normally that may be the approach (and I'm not singling out Italy for this, it probably applies to most countries). On this occasion, however: > In all previous cases involving other international groups, once a settlement was reached and payment made, prosecutors closed related criminal investigations, either through plea deals or by dropping the cases. > This time, however, Milan prosecutors did not share the tax authority's approach and decided to press ahead with their probe, leading to a request that the suspects be sent to trial.

mr_00ff00 7mo ago
Damn, is anyone an expert that can speak to the criminal law involved here? It’s crazy that executives can jump around the law and not face any criminal charges, then the company picks up the bill (although I’m not ignorant thinking this isn’t usual) I’m just curious to learn more about how often this is the case and you usually what happens with people afterward
- nobodyandproud 7mo ago
  While I share your sentiment, perhaps its better that it remain murky to give prosecutors a chance to succeed.
- limagnolia 7mo ago
  I don't know about Italian law, but in the US tax evasion is pretty difficult in many cases to prove. It is illegal in the US to deliberately defraud the IRS to evade paying taxes, it is not illegal to make a mistake, or claim a deduction you think you can claim when the IRS decides you can't, etc. So prosecutors must prove you had an intent to evade taxes you knew you owed. Because they can rarely meet that bar, criminal charges are rarely brought.
  - lormayna 7mo ago
    In Italy, if you are charged of tax evasion, you need to demonstrate that you are not evading. It's called "inversion proof"
    - keeganpoppen 7mo ago
      that seems terrible
      - barbazoo 7mo ago
        Doesn't seem to be universal but applied narrowly for example for financial crimes.
      - pas 7mo ago
        it's for the civil part. (so you need to show the tax office some paper trail that you based your filings on. invoices, bills, contracts, emails, receipts. and if they are formally okay, then the tax agency has to show that they are just fake papers.) as far as I understand the criminal part still considers intent and so on (and has a higher standard for burden of proof), but if you file for VAT return and then you have zero invoices (and so the numbers simply don't add up) the court can easily find that there was intent to defraud the state. (and then sentencing is based on the amount of damages.)

zoobab 7mo ago

"Tariffs on Italy are threatened. Case is dropped." Justice is independent in most EU countries.

cbg0 7mo ago
There's quite a few asterisks that need to be appended to "independent".
- gpderetta 7mo ago
  It is quite independent in Italy actually. The government is pushing for a constitutional amendment to help "fix" this feature. There is going to be a referendum on the change very soon.
  - N19PEDL2 7mo ago
    For reference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2026_Italian_constitutional_referendum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2026_Italian_constitutional_re...
  - jonathanlydall 7mo ago
    I have ancestral Italian Citizenship but have never lived in Italy. I am occasionally called upon by the local consulate to perform my civic duty and vote. Just this week I sent them back my ballot, now marked, for this referendum in a sealed envelope. This referendum required me to dig more deeply than usual into Italian politics before I could decide which way I wanted to vote.
  - mr_00ff00 7mo ago
    I am familiar with this but thought it was for separating prosecutors from judges? Is this some indirect effect of that?
    - riffraff 7mo ago
      the current reform is complicated, and reasonable people can disagree on how to vote, but it goes a bit further than separating prosecutors from judges. Namely, it also changes the self-regulating body (the CSM, Consiglio Superiore della Magistratura) of the judiciary so that the government and parliament have a bit more authority and the judiciary have a bit less: the organ is split in two, its judiciary members are no longer elected but picked randomly while a part is decided by the political side, and there's an even higher special tribunal. Proponents say this is necessary, opponents say this is leading towards stronger power of the political majority over the judiciary.

napolux 7mo ago

It usually works more like: - we want 1.4B, but it will take 10 years in courts - best I can do is 800M (or even lower) - ok, we'll take it source: I'm italian and many tech giants did this already. Apple opened an academy in Naples too.

epolanski 7mo ago
Not only tech giants, everybody from celebrities to random Joes can get away with it. My mother's husband owed 70k+ EUR in taxes and at some point the judge proposed and he agreed to 2800 euros. The trick is to not have a bank account in your name only, you have it joint with a child/spouse and they can't take your money. Nor they can take your house, if you only have one. Eventually under those situations the judges try to take anything rather than nothing. I'm not defending this situation, just saying it's widespread and the fact that every two governments come one that does a "condono", which is essentially "let's agree with tax evaders for some 50% of the tax they owe so they are happy and we see something" doesn't help. Harsher punishment should be warranted, but you can't go to prison for tax evasion.
- sheiyei 7mo ago
  You 100% should be able to go to prison from tax evasion. Not to fill prisons just to line prison owners' pockets like in the US, but definitely have the possibility for egregious offences.
  - keeganpoppen 7mo ago
    you can… it’s just not really clear that anyone does. that said, i think if you polled the average joe on the street, they would overwhelmingly say that you can, which is probably a net gain for society.
  - epolanski 7mo ago
    > You 100% should be able to go to prison from tax evasion. I said can't, not shouldn't. In any case I'd still say it's arguable if the punishment matches the crime, I'm not saying I'm against it but I don't fully buy it either. In Italy we have two law codes: criminal and civil. You can't go to prison for civil offenses like tax evasion in our system.