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Somebody wrote this comment on the original page "Ada enforces the engineering principles that we should be following but the hacker mentality the dominates th

Somebody wrote this comment on the original page "Ada enforces the engineering principles that we should be following but the hacker mentality the dominates this field pushes back against that since they have a cheap & "easy" language like C to use instead." What do think about this "engineers versus hackers" debate?

Tichy 18y ago
I don't think (some) hackers prefer less strict languages because they like to be sloppy, but because they honestly believe it is the better engineering principle in the long run.
- trapper 18y ago
  Hackers don't work in maintenance perhaps?
  - tsally 18y ago
    Actual hackers (usually) make things that require minimal maintenance. The idea that code needs to be "maintained" (it's not like it degrades over time) is actually silly once you think about it. Maintenance is just a way of covering up for software that was poorly designed or has too many bugs.
    - joe_bleau 18y ago
      For instance, three years after deployment, the production line is modified and the code must be adapted to suit the new configuration (which may contain devices that didn't exist when the code was orginally designed). Do you consider that maintenance?
    - trapper 18y ago
      Unfortunately, in the real world requirements are often poorly understood by not only the development team but the customer (making it impossible for the "hacker" to create the right software), and only after continued use of the in production software are requirements truly fleshed out. I'm not sure if you have had to re-engineer an app before, but it's not pretty regardless of how well built it was. This is what I consider maintenance, considering most applications have to be continually adapted for ever changing requirements.
olavk 18y ago
I think the target environment makes a big difference. Quick iterations, hacks and experiments are nice when creating a web app or an application prototype which can be refined iteratively. However, if you program a spaceship or nuclear missile, you have to get it correct the first time, and the program have to work correctly under any concievable input. I think this calls for different approaches and different languages.
- greendestiny 18y ago
  I actually think the bounds checking etc of Ada is good. If you put that in a very C like language it would have been better accepted. Instead it had a bunch of readability 'improvements' that turned programmers off.
jcl 18y ago
Praxis High Integrity Systems uses Ada to write large systems that are practically bug-free, for a fraction of the cost of standard approaches: http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/sep05/1454 http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/sep05/1454 While most projects don't need perfect code, Praxis' success makes me think there is something to the engineering argument.

Tichy 18y ago

I don't think (some) hackers prefer less strict languages because they like to be sloppy, but because they honestly believe it is the better engineering principle in the long run.

trapper 18y ago
Hackers don't work in maintenance perhaps?
- tsally 18y ago
  Actual hackers (usually) make things that require minimal maintenance. The idea that code needs to be "maintained" (it's not like it degrades over time) is actually silly once you think about it. Maintenance is just a way of covering up for software that was poorly designed or has too many bugs.
  - joe_bleau 18y ago
    For instance, three years after deployment, the production line is modified and the code must be adapted to suit the new configuration (which may contain devices that didn't exist when the code was orginally designed). Do you consider that maintenance?
  - trapper 18y ago
    Unfortunately, in the real world requirements are often poorly understood by not only the development team but the customer (making it impossible for the "hacker" to create the right software), and only after continued use of the in production software are requirements truly fleshed out. I'm not sure if you have had to re-engineer an app before, but it's not pretty regardless of how well built it was. This is what I consider maintenance, considering most applications have to be continually adapted for ever changing requirements.

olavk 18y ago

I think the target environment makes a big difference. Quick iterations, hacks and experiments are nice when creating a web app or an application prototype which can be refined iteratively. However, if you program a spaceship or nuclear missile, you have to get it correct the first time, and the program have to work correctly under any concievable input. I think this calls for different approaches and different languages.

greendestiny 18y ago
I actually think the bounds checking etc of Ada is good. If you put that in a very C like language it would have been better accepted. Instead it had a bunch of readability 'improvements' that turned programmers off.

jcl 18y ago

Praxis High Integrity Systems uses Ada to write large systems that are practically bug-free, for a fraction of the cost of standard approaches: http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/sep05/1454 http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/sep05/1454 While most projects don't need perfect code, Praxis' success makes me think there is something to the engineering argument.