2 ms·

> Which also renders the entire paradox somewhat moot because there is no choice for you to be made. Not quite. You did choose your decision making methods at

by ordu 7mo ago

> Which also renders the entire paradox somewhat moot because there is no choice for you to be made. Not quite. You did choose your decision making methods at some point in your life, and you could change them multiple times till you came to the setup of Newcomb's paradox. If we look at your past life as a variable in the problem, then changing this variable changes the outcome, it changes the prediction made by the predictor. > The existence of a flawless predictor means that you do not have a choice after the predictor made its prediction I believe, that if your definition of a choice stop working if we assume a deterministic Universe, then you need a better definition of a choice. In a deterministic Universe becomes glaringly obvious that all the framework of free will and choice is just an abstraction, that abstract away things that are not really needed to make a decision. Moreover I think I can hint how to deal with it: relativity. Different observers cannot agree if an observed agent has free will or not. Accept it fundamentally, like relativity accepts that the universal time doesn't exist, and all the logical paradoxes will go away.

chriswarbo 7mo ago
> I believe, that if your definition of a choice stop working if we assume a deterministic Universe, then you need a better definition of a choice. In a deterministic Universe becomes glaringly obvious that all the framework of free will and choice is just an abstraction, that abstract away things that are not really needed to make a decision. Indeed, I think of concepts like "agency", "choice", "free will", etc. as aspects of a particular sort of scientific model. That sort of model can make good predictions about people, organisations, etc. which would be intractable to many other approaches. It can also be useful in situations that we have more sophisticated models for, e.g. treating a physical system as "wanting" to minimise its energy can give a reasonable prediction of its behaviour very quickly. That sort of model has also been applied to systems where its predictive powers aren't very good; e.g. modelling weather, agriculture, etc. as being determined by some "will of the gods", and attempting to infer the desires of those gods based on their observed "choices". It baffles me that some people might think a model of this sort might have any relevance at a fundamental level.
vidarh 7mo ago
This is a compatibilist view. However, we can tell that most people don't adhere to a compatibilist view of free will because it tends to make people very upset if you suggest they have no "genuine" free will or agency, and the moral implications behind the assumption of genuine agency are e.g. baked into everything from our welfare systems to our justice systems, that assumes people have an actual choice in what they do. For that reason I strongly disagree with the compatibilist view - language is defined by use, and most people act in ways that clearly signal a non-compatibilist view of free will.
- ordu 7mo ago
  I personally don't see any problems with this. For example, in most cases we can agree if someone had free will or no when they committed a crime. Even if I prefer compatibilist view and you are not, we'll agree in the most cases. In the cases when we may not agree the reasons of disagreement will not stem from this fundamental disagreements, but from things like should we treat state of affect as a state when a human has no free will. So, a compatibilist view is not incompatible with the world we live in, but moreover, it is needed to keep our world functioning. The world we live in is mostly artificially constructed. Welfare and justice systems are not "genuine", they are artificial constructs. They play a role in our society and the ideas of "free will" and "guilt" are constructed also, and they are tweaked to make our systems to work better. If you assume that free will and guilt are "genuine" or God given, then you can't tune them to better match their purposes. You are losing agency this way, losing part of your free will, you can't consciously and reasonably discuss if state of affect should be an exception from the rule "any person has a free will". You'll be forced either to skip the discussion, or to resort to some kind of theological arguments. But if you accept, that "free will" is a social construct, then you can easily identify the affected variables: it is all about punishment for crimes or awarding people for their pro-social deeds. You can think of how "state of affect inhibits free will" can influence all these goals, you can think of the possibility of people simulating state of affect (or even nurturing their personal traits that increase the probability of entering state of affect) to avoid a punishment. You can think rationally, logically and to pick a solution that benefits the society the best. Those very society with baked in idea of free will. Or you can choose to believe "free will" is God given, because of an irrelevant linguistic argument, and lose the ability to make our world better. > most people act in ways that clearly signal a non-compatibilist view of free will. Of course, we are not living in quantum mechanics we live in a world that is constructed by people. I mean, all this is built on top of QM, but QM laws do not manifest themselves directly for us. We have other explanatory structures to deal with everyday physics. But even physics doesn't matter that much: I turn the switch and voila I have light, and the heck with conservation of energy. I can talk to you, despite we are residing on different continents, 1000s of km don't matter. If I want to eat I do not try to kill some animal to eat it nor do I gather seeds and roots in a wild to eat them. I go to work and do something, get my salary and buy food in a local store. We are living in an artificial world with artificial rules. Free will is part of this world. Of course we talk about it like it exists. We talk about it like it is a universal truth. Relativity I mentioned above doesn't show itself most of the time, because the world is constructed in a way, when we can agree about someone having it. Situations when this is not the case are very strange and can be even punished: manipulation (which is come close to taking people's agency away from them) is deemed amoral. The world constructed so we can ignore that free will is just an illusion, moreover it is constructed to think about it in terms of free will, so you'll have issues thinking about it in other terms. Like you'll have a lot of issues trying to calculate aerodynamic of a plane relying on equations of quantum mechanics.

by ordu 7mo ago

chriswarbo 7mo ago

> I believe, that if your definition of a choice stop working if we assume a deterministic Universe, then you need a better definition of a choice. In a deterministic Universe becomes glaringly obvious that all the framework of free will and choice is just an abstraction, that abstract away things that are not really needed to make a decision. Indeed, I think of concepts like "agency", "choice", "free will", etc. as aspects of a particular sort of scientific model. That sort of model can make good predictions about people, organisations, etc. which would be intractable to many other approaches. It can also be useful in situations that we have more sophisticated models for, e.g. treating a physical system as "wanting" to minimise its energy can give a reasonable prediction of its behaviour very quickly. That sort of model has also been applied to systems where its predictive powers aren't very good; e.g. modelling weather, agriculture, etc. as being determined by some "will of the gods", and attempting to infer the desires of those gods based on their observed "choices". It baffles me that some people might think a model of this sort might have any relevance at a fundamental level.

vidarh 7mo ago

This is a compatibilist view. However, we can tell that most people don't adhere to a compatibilist view of free will because it tends to make people very upset if you suggest they have no "genuine" free will or agency, and the moral implications behind the assumption of genuine agency are e.g. baked into everything from our welfare systems to our justice systems, that assumes people have an actual choice in what they do. For that reason I strongly disagree with the compatibilist view - language is defined by use, and most people act in ways that clearly signal a non-compatibilist view of free will.

ordu 7mo ago
I personally don't see any problems with this. For example, in most cases we can agree if someone had free will or no when they committed a crime. Even if I prefer compatibilist view and you are not, we'll agree in the most cases. In the cases when we may not agree the reasons of disagreement will not stem from this fundamental disagreements, but from things like should we treat state of affect as a state when a human has no free will. So, a compatibilist view is not incompatible with the world we live in, but moreover, it is needed to keep our world functioning. The world we live in is mostly artificially constructed. Welfare and justice systems are not "genuine", they are artificial constructs. They play a role in our society and the ideas of "free will" and "guilt" are constructed also, and they are tweaked to make our systems to work better. If you assume that free will and guilt are "genuine" or God given, then you can't tune them to better match their purposes. You are losing agency this way, losing part of your free will, you can't consciously and reasonably discuss if state of affect should be an exception from the rule "any person has a free will". You'll be forced either to skip the discussion, or to resort to some kind of theological arguments. But if you accept, that "free will" is a social construct, then you can easily identify the affected variables: it is all about punishment for crimes or awarding people for their pro-social deeds. You can think of how "state of affect inhibits free will" can influence all these goals, you can think of the possibility of people simulating state of affect (or even nurturing their personal traits that increase the probability of entering state of affect) to avoid a punishment. You can think rationally, logically and to pick a solution that benefits the society the best. Those very society with baked in idea of free will. Or you can choose to believe "free will" is God given, because of an irrelevant linguistic argument, and lose the ability to make our world better. > most people act in ways that clearly signal a non-compatibilist view of free will. Of course, we are not living in quantum mechanics we live in a world that is constructed by people. I mean, all this is built on top of QM, but QM laws do not manifest themselves directly for us. We have other explanatory structures to deal with everyday physics. But even physics doesn't matter that much: I turn the switch and voila I have light, and the heck with conservation of energy. I can talk to you, despite we are residing on different continents, 1000s of km don't matter. If I want to eat I do not try to kill some animal to eat it nor do I gather seeds and roots in a wild to eat them. I go to work and do something, get my salary and buy food in a local store. We are living in an artificial world with artificial rules. Free will is part of this world. Of course we talk about it like it exists. We talk about it like it is a universal truth. Relativity I mentioned above doesn't show itself most of the time, because the world is constructed in a way, when we can agree about someone having it. Situations when this is not the case are very strange and can be even punished: manipulation (which is come close to taking people's agency away from them) is deemed amoral. The world constructed so we can ignore that free will is just an illusion, moreover it is constructed to think about it in terms of free will, so you'll have issues thinking about it in other terms. Like you'll have a lot of issues trying to calculate aerodynamic of a plane relying on equations of quantum mechanics.