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They pitch this as the panacea to fast fashion, but surely the solution to fast fashion is just to not buy and throw away so many clothes? I don't believe we b

They pitch this as the panacea to fast fashion, but surely the solution to fast fashion is just to not buy and throw away so many clothes? I don't believe we buy cheap clothes because we can't find good quality clothes that last, but because we like owning lots of clothes and keeping up with trends. When my last laptop broke I was kind of happy. I thought "ooh now I can upgrade to a shiny new laptop guilt-free". I think that's the real problem.

paulluuk 7mo ago
I bought a 200 dollar jacket and it had holes in it within months, just from regular use. I have an old 3 dollar shirt I bought years ago and it's only now beginning to show wear. One problem this shows, is that as a consumer I have no idea what the hell is quality clothing. Clearly, expensive does not always mean high quality. And I'm not buying "brand" clothing either.
- torben-friis 7mo ago
  Another problem is the dive to the bottom that the industry has suffered. Your experience is very common, I have a fake nike sweatshirt I bought more than a decade ago from a random street seller (emergency on a trip) which still outlasts current brand clothes. Consumers' ignorance is not the problem, it used to be generally true that the more expensive item was better. Every brand has seemingly decided to burn their furniture to heat the house though, and what we experience is not as much consumer ignorance as it is a lack of names deserving trust.
- IAmBroom 7mo ago
  I've been trying to buy winter coats at end of season (coincidentally; not chasing sales), and one thing is consistent: fabric content is only hinted at. "Full wool" but "slightly stretchy" - possible with a broadcloth woven wool, but more likely "full"!=100%. "Cashmere" at prices that can (at best) be 10% cashmere, but might be 2% just to avoid outright fraud. I bought a really good-looking dark blue fedora; I received a really good-looking black fedora a size-and-a-1/2 too big. I had to fight them at the credit card level, because they offered me half off at best for a hat I can't wear. What is inconsistent: only some of them are fraudulent fronts. I'd guess about 25-50% right now, based on my recent shopping experiences. But not all: I ordered some expensive gloves; their advertised fit was wrong; we settled on 50% off (I /can/ wear them, but it's not ideal, and their return policy clearly required me to ship back). That firm had shite measurement guides, but honest merchant fronting. I've ordered super-cool button-front shirts that ended up being tissue-like fabric. Grrr... Speaking of fabric... Amazon folded Fabric.com into their Borg cube, and you CANNOT buy fabric by weight online - for some goddamn reason. I want to buy 100% white cotton for a play costume, and need it thicker - between sheeting and terrycloth; closer to the latter; Nothing else really matters to me about it. But can I determine the cloth thickness/weight? Nope. So: 50% swindlers; 75% idiots; buy clothes in person or else expect to throw a certain amount away.
  - SV_BubbleTime 7mo ago
    >I bought a really good-looking dark blue fedora; I received a really good-looking black fedora a size-and-a-1/2 too big. I had to fight them Ah, very relatable… >buy clothes in person or else expect to throw a certain amount away. That’s reasonable.
  - ninalanyon 7mo ago
    In Europe if a garment says 100% New Wool it had better be just that. I have several coats with varying proportions of wool, nylon, etc. All bought secondhand and of very high quality compared to the price I paid. Of course they aren't the latest fashion but clothes that last are by definition out of fashion for most of their existence.
- JKCalhoun 7mo ago
  They knew what "slow fashion" was 100 years ago when shirt collars and sleeve cuffs were turned to double the life of the garment.
- jbaber 7mo ago
  This happened to me. I tried to be a good boy and wrote to the company asking for zipper parts to fix it and they told me to buy another jacket. So I looked for companies that advertise repairability and found Patagonia made the most believable claims. Quite reasonable now that I'm old and rich, but I wouldn't have had the choice when young and poor.
- padolsey 7mo ago
  Yep :/ There are just no good heuristics left for quality clothing. It's horrible. One thing I do genuinely have good experience with is Japanese denim. But that's about it.
- cannonpr 7mo ago
  A “quality” jacket in the 1930s would cost 300-400$ or more inflation adjusted, it would also look less fashionable today, and feel somewhat less comfortable due to several concessions for durability in design. A durable quality jacket back then was also holding a majority market position, rather than being a niche good, which means that “quality clothes” do still seem to exist, but I’m always looking at 500-600$ for durable jeans or coats.
  - SV_BubbleTime 7mo ago
    >but I’m always looking at 500-600$ for durable jeans tf. That’s clearly you looking for a specific fashion or intending to pay as much as you can. Triple Aught Design jeans are $150 to $250 and I am skeptical you have anything that is outlasting them. Others brands surely as well. Seems to me you are still stuck in the “if it costs more…” line of thinking.
    - cannonpr 7mo ago
      No, I am just buying import Japanese jeans from the folk that bought all of the original high quality jeans making machines when the Americans moved to the flexi stuff, the jeans I buy last with next to no damage for 10-15 years despite near daily wear. I will grant you that I am paying a premium for both import, and a particular quality of fabric, but honestly I look like farmer Joe mostly.
    - mikepurvis 7mo ago
      I recently ordered some Levis that I'm happy with, but I think there's also a limit for me in that certain life-things can happen that will end a garment regardless of how much was paid for it or how much it was babied. I'm pretty disciplined about wearing a bib in the kitchen these days, but you can still get a glass of wine on it at the dinner table, or sparks from a campfire, or a cycling wipeout. Those are annoying at the best of times, but particularly if it ends a garment that you paid 3-5x normal price for specifically so you could have it forever.
    - khimaros 7mo ago
      having burned though easily 10 pairs of Triple Aught pants of various designs, they are well made and attractive, but durability is not an outlier from my experience. each design consistently fails in the same area with regular use. i tend to repurchase the designs that fit and function well, but they all inevitably fall.
- mikepurvis 7mo ago
  I've started buying "nicer" things purely for fit reasons, like I've realized that I'm a lean 6' guy with a long torso, so for shirts and especially sweaters a medium is too short and a large is too baggy— the correct size for me in off-the-rack items is a tall medium, and that's definitely not available everywhere. So I'm extremely happy with a Land's End quarter zip that I picked up recently, and I hope that's a well-made piece that will last a while, but overall I completely agree that mass-produced clothing is a market for lemons; no one can tell what the good stuff is, so it's all assumed to be garbage and priced accordingly.
- ninalanyon 7mo ago
  Buy second hand clothes. These are either very, very, cheap, and they last just long enough for me to get bored with them. Or they are merely fairly cheap and last almost forever because the stuff that quickly falls apart doesn't get resold, it gets discarded by the person who bought it new. In either case I have lengthened the time between manufacturing and landfill and had the enjoyment of clothes that I would otherwise not have been able to afford along the way.
  - J1philli 7mo ago
    I think my parents knew this. I grew up with second hand clothes almost exclusively and didn't really know until I asked my parents about it when I was older. It is a great strat to find quality clothes.
  - paulluuk 7mo ago
    I've tried, but I've been to so many thrift stores and never found anything I liked or which fit well. I'm a tall guy and the men's section of thrift stores is just filled with what I assume is the clothes that widows donate after their husbands die. And I don't mean that as a joke, half of it looks like something a small boxy train conductor in the 50s would wear.
starvar2 7mo ago
Honestly, even "good" brands seem to make a lot of low quality items these days. I honestly find it hard to find good, lasting, clothes.
_flux 7mo ago
As I understand it, a big part of produced clothing just goes straight to waste to begin with. If everything was created on-demand, it would minimize that kind of waste.
- Cthulhu_ 7mo ago
  That would be great, a lot of clothes are made at sizes that don't sell very well and which get discounted, then discarded if they don't sell. However, made on demand will likely cost more, plus you can't fit items first. Unless they make items for fitting which you can then order to have manufactured. But yeah the main thing is that on-demand can never compete with mass production even if a big part of the mass produced stuff is discarded.
  - reverius42 7mo ago
    From 3d printed clothing, the obvious next step should be to have your phone take a 3d scan of you, and send it to the clothing designer to print it to your actual body size and shape. We could have truly unique sizing (none of this S/M/L/XL stuff)!
    - IAmBroom 7mo ago
      Yes, and people have been chasing that Grail for decades. It's always right around the corner. (Despite what another poster said, it IS being pursued commercially. And unobtainable so far.)
    - h2zizzle 7mo ago
      Edge case: people who are in the process of changing their body size/shape. Growing children, people losing weight, people gaining weight (they're out there), will all occasionally want to buy for where their body is going to be in the future, not where it is now. How to accommodate them?
      - _flux 7mo ago
        I'm sure models predicting how their body changes (based on various parameters and previous scans of the particular person and other people) could be built, allowing to optimize for longest time period of "decent fit" at the cost of "perfect fit now".
Zababa 7mo ago
> surely the solution to fast fashion is just to not buy and throw away so many clothes? "just don't do X" has basically never worked, it is not a serious solution to any problem.
poszlem 7mo ago
If "the solution" depends on people changing their behaviour on their own (ideally by lowering their expectations/do the harder thing/etc), it is almost never "the solution". It is usually just wishful thinking.
esseph 7mo ago
> I don't believe we buy cheap clothes because we can't find good quality clothes that last, but because we like owning lots of clothes and keeping up with trends. I will buy 5 things that last for 10 years if somebody gave me the option. Otherwise no, I'm not chasing fashion trends.

paulluuk 7mo ago

I bought a 200 dollar jacket and it had holes in it within months, just from regular use. I have an old 3 dollar shirt I bought years ago and it's only now beginning to show wear. One problem this shows, is that as a consumer I have no idea what the hell is quality clothing. Clearly, expensive does not always mean high quality. And I'm not buying "brand" clothing either.

torben-friis 7mo ago
Another problem is the dive to the bottom that the industry has suffered. Your experience is very common, I have a fake nike sweatshirt I bought more than a decade ago from a random street seller (emergency on a trip) which still outlasts current brand clothes. Consumers' ignorance is not the problem, it used to be generally true that the more expensive item was better. Every brand has seemingly decided to burn their furniture to heat the house though, and what we experience is not as much consumer ignorance as it is a lack of names deserving trust.
IAmBroom 7mo ago
I've been trying to buy winter coats at end of season (coincidentally; not chasing sales), and one thing is consistent: fabric content is only hinted at. "Full wool" but "slightly stretchy" - possible with a broadcloth woven wool, but more likely "full"!=100%. "Cashmere" at prices that can (at best) be 10% cashmere, but might be 2% just to avoid outright fraud. I bought a really good-looking dark blue fedora; I received a really good-looking black fedora a size-and-a-1/2 too big. I had to fight them at the credit card level, because they offered me half off at best for a hat I can't wear. What is inconsistent: only some of them are fraudulent fronts. I'd guess about 25-50% right now, based on my recent shopping experiences. But not all: I ordered some expensive gloves; their advertised fit was wrong; we settled on 50% off (I /can/ wear them, but it's not ideal, and their return policy clearly required me to ship back). That firm had shite measurement guides, but honest merchant fronting. I've ordered super-cool button-front shirts that ended up being tissue-like fabric. Grrr... Speaking of fabric... Amazon folded Fabric.com into their Borg cube, and you CANNOT buy fabric by weight online - for some goddamn reason. I want to buy 100% white cotton for a play costume, and need it thicker - between sheeting and terrycloth; closer to the latter; Nothing else really matters to me about it. But can I determine the cloth thickness/weight? Nope. So: 50% swindlers; 75% idiots; buy clothes in person or else expect to throw a certain amount away.
- SV_BubbleTime 7mo ago
  >I bought a really good-looking dark blue fedora; I received a really good-looking black fedora a size-and-a-1/2 too big. I had to fight them Ah, very relatable… >buy clothes in person or else expect to throw a certain amount away. That’s reasonable.
- ninalanyon 7mo ago
  In Europe if a garment says 100% New Wool it had better be just that. I have several coats with varying proportions of wool, nylon, etc. All bought secondhand and of very high quality compared to the price I paid. Of course they aren't the latest fashion but clothes that last are by definition out of fashion for most of their existence.
JKCalhoun 7mo ago
They knew what "slow fashion" was 100 years ago when shirt collars and sleeve cuffs were turned to double the life of the garment.
jbaber 7mo ago
This happened to me. I tried to be a good boy and wrote to the company asking for zipper parts to fix it and they told me to buy another jacket. So I looked for companies that advertise repairability and found Patagonia made the most believable claims. Quite reasonable now that I'm old and rich, but I wouldn't have had the choice when young and poor.
padolsey 7mo ago
Yep :/ There are just no good heuristics left for quality clothing. It's horrible. One thing I do genuinely have good experience with is Japanese denim. But that's about it.
cannonpr 7mo ago
A “quality” jacket in the 1930s would cost 300-400$ or more inflation adjusted, it would also look less fashionable today, and feel somewhat less comfortable due to several concessions for durability in design. A durable quality jacket back then was also holding a majority market position, rather than being a niche good, which means that “quality clothes” do still seem to exist, but I’m always looking at 500-600$ for durable jeans or coats.
- SV_BubbleTime 7mo ago
  >but I’m always looking at 500-600$ for durable jeans tf. That’s clearly you looking for a specific fashion or intending to pay as much as you can. Triple Aught Design jeans are $150 to $250 and I am skeptical you have anything that is outlasting them. Others brands surely as well. Seems to me you are still stuck in the “if it costs more…” line of thinking.
  - cannonpr 7mo ago
    No, I am just buying import Japanese jeans from the folk that bought all of the original high quality jeans making machines when the Americans moved to the flexi stuff, the jeans I buy last with next to no damage for 10-15 years despite near daily wear. I will grant you that I am paying a premium for both import, and a particular quality of fabric, but honestly I look like farmer Joe mostly.
  - mikepurvis 7mo ago
    I recently ordered some Levis that I'm happy with, but I think there's also a limit for me in that certain life-things can happen that will end a garment regardless of how much was paid for it or how much it was babied. I'm pretty disciplined about wearing a bib in the kitchen these days, but you can still get a glass of wine on it at the dinner table, or sparks from a campfire, or a cycling wipeout. Those are annoying at the best of times, but particularly if it ends a garment that you paid 3-5x normal price for specifically so you could have it forever.
  - khimaros 7mo ago
    having burned though easily 10 pairs of Triple Aught pants of various designs, they are well made and attractive, but durability is not an outlier from my experience. each design consistently fails in the same area with regular use. i tend to repurchase the designs that fit and function well, but they all inevitably fall.
mikepurvis 7mo ago
I've started buying "nicer" things purely for fit reasons, like I've realized that I'm a lean 6' guy with a long torso, so for shirts and especially sweaters a medium is too short and a large is too baggy— the correct size for me in off-the-rack items is a tall medium, and that's definitely not available everywhere. So I'm extremely happy with a Land's End quarter zip that I picked up recently, and I hope that's a well-made piece that will last a while, but overall I completely agree that mass-produced clothing is a market for lemons; no one can tell what the good stuff is, so it's all assumed to be garbage and priced accordingly.
ninalanyon 7mo ago
Buy second hand clothes. These are either very, very, cheap, and they last just long enough for me to get bored with them. Or they are merely fairly cheap and last almost forever because the stuff that quickly falls apart doesn't get resold, it gets discarded by the person who bought it new. In either case I have lengthened the time between manufacturing and landfill and had the enjoyment of clothes that I would otherwise not have been able to afford along the way.
- J1philli 7mo ago
  I think my parents knew this. I grew up with second hand clothes almost exclusively and didn't really know until I asked my parents about it when I was older. It is a great strat to find quality clothes.
- paulluuk 7mo ago
  I've tried, but I've been to so many thrift stores and never found anything I liked or which fit well. I'm a tall guy and the men's section of thrift stores is just filled with what I assume is the clothes that widows donate after their husbands die. And I don't mean that as a joke, half of it looks like something a small boxy train conductor in the 50s would wear.

starvar2 7mo ago

Honestly, even "good" brands seem to make a lot of low quality items these days. I honestly find it hard to find good, lasting, clothes.

_flux 7mo ago

As I understand it, a big part of produced clothing just goes straight to waste to begin with. If everything was created on-demand, it would minimize that kind of waste.

Cthulhu_ 7mo ago
That would be great, a lot of clothes are made at sizes that don't sell very well and which get discounted, then discarded if they don't sell. However, made on demand will likely cost more, plus you can't fit items first. Unless they make items for fitting which you can then order to have manufactured. But yeah the main thing is that on-demand can never compete with mass production even if a big part of the mass produced stuff is discarded.
- reverius42 7mo ago
  From 3d printed clothing, the obvious next step should be to have your phone take a 3d scan of you, and send it to the clothing designer to print it to your actual body size and shape. We could have truly unique sizing (none of this S/M/L/XL stuff)!
  - IAmBroom 7mo ago
    Yes, and people have been chasing that Grail for decades. It's always right around the corner. (Despite what another poster said, it IS being pursued commercially. And unobtainable so far.)
  - h2zizzle 7mo ago
    Edge case: people who are in the process of changing their body size/shape. Growing children, people losing weight, people gaining weight (they're out there), will all occasionally want to buy for where their body is going to be in the future, not where it is now. How to accommodate them?
    - _flux 7mo ago
      I'm sure models predicting how their body changes (based on various parameters and previous scans of the particular person and other people) could be built, allowing to optimize for longest time period of "decent fit" at the cost of "perfect fit now".

Zababa 7mo ago

> surely the solution to fast fashion is just to not buy and throw away so many clothes? "just don't do X" has basically never worked, it is not a serious solution to any problem.

poszlem 7mo ago

If "the solution" depends on people changing their behaviour on their own (ideally by lowering their expectations/do the harder thing/etc), it is almost never "the solution". It is usually just wishful thinking.

esseph 7mo ago

> I don't believe we buy cheap clothes because we can't find good quality clothes that last, but because we like owning lots of clothes and keeping up with trends. I will buy 5 things that last for 10 years if somebody gave me the option. Otherwise no, I'm not chasing fashion trends.