7 ms·

Computer Science Graduates are the Least Employable in the UK

29 points by sean-duffy 14y ago

sean-duffy 14y ago
After just the other week observing a few articles on HN regarding the situation with jobs for CS graduates in the US, one article stating a 2:1 ratio between the number of available jobs for developers and the number of developers, this came as much of a surprise to me, as well as being pretty disconcerting since I'm in the UK and planning to study CS next year. I'm very interested to hear the opinions on this from those actually in the industry, is the situation really that polar opposite between the US and the UK?
- activepeanut 14y ago
  Your real education starts after you graduate, but nobody wants to invest in employee's education, regardless of their age. Things only get better after a couple of years of experience. You have a better idea of what you're doing while being very cheap to employ.
- tsotha 14y ago
  The job market for developers is pretty good in the US, but graduates will have a tough time landing that first job. That's the way it's always been, though.
- sgk284 14y ago
  The article is two years old. I wouldn't read too much into it.
- crntaylor 14y ago
  If you study at a good university, and learn useful things while you study, and build cool things in your spare time, then you will have no problem finding a job. The company I work for routinely pays £100k+ ($160k+) per year to fresh computer science grads if they're really good.
  - Alan01252 14y ago
    I find this figure hard to accept. £100k+ a year for a developer with no experience? I've been doing software development for a while now, and know more than a few developers, and I guarantee you not one of them started on anywhere near £100k a year. £100k a year is around what I know experienced contractual developers earn working for big Canary Wharf banks. If this is true, then please let me know the name of the company and I'll apply right now.
    - crntaylor 14y ago
      That number includes bonus - but it's certainly accurate. These guys might have no commercial experience, but they certainly have plenty of programming experience (and are typically top 1 or 2 in their year at university). I've emailed you the name of the company using the contact form on your website. We look forward to your application!
      - Alan01252 14y ago
        Well you've successfully called my bluff.... Unfortunately I have no particular interest in that industry, and more importantly, if I'm honest, wouldn't have a chance of getting through the application stage.
  - njs12345 14y ago
    Really? Even my friends (from Cambridge) who went into finance aren't earning nearly that much in base salary. Is that including bonuses and other benefits?
    - crntaylor 14y ago
      It's including bonus, but no other benefits.
- vmind 14y ago
  As long as you gain some experience in addition to your CS degree there are plenty of programming jobs around, though they are largely concentrated in London and Cambridge (Quant jobs in London, other more general programming in both locations, quite a bit of hardware around Cambridge too). The larger employers often recruit directly through University career fairs. There's still a high demand for good developers in the UK, main issue in recruitment is sifting through the many applicants for positions who, even with experience, show no aptitude for the job.
cbgrey 14y ago
And yet as an employer (not in the UK though) I have a hard time finding talented developers.
- wheaties 14y ago
  Here's the three step trick that works across the board: 1. Pay more 2. Offer amazing benefits. 3. Sponsor tech events and become active in a tech community. That's what I say to everyone who "can't find anyone decent." Decent people can pick and choose at the moment. If they aren't choosing you, you're not giving them enough reasons.
  - mickeyp 14y ago
    Actually, you know, you just need #1 if you're hiring people who aren't in their early 20s, or something. Most "help us solve hard problems!" technology firms/startups in London simply don't pay that well, and that makes it hard to attract the older, experienced developers with families. Hiring contractors is another way of quickly getting access to a very large pool of skilled workers, but I find that most smaller companies never bother, even though the TOC of having a contractor on board may not be all that much more than a permanent employee.
  - ryanhuff 14y ago
    Just to add to your post, an (unfortunate) reality for many companies looking for good back-office (IT) developers is that many of the most qualified just aren't interested in the company's work or industry, which requires even more focus on #1 and #2. In my experience, many of these same companies don't understand why they can't find people, but can't fathom addressing #1 and #2.
- yardie 14y ago
  I assume by talented you mean experienced. There is also the other talent of showing promise, but most companies don't bother with that and prefer the ones that the ones that come out the womb as objc rockstars.
  - 14y ago
nickporter 14y ago
Not terribly suprising... I think that most computer science grads are not interested in building enterprise software or rails web apps, but would rather work on advancing the field of theoretical computer science. Unfortunately, I doubt there's much demand nowadays for this type of work.
- alinajaf 14y ago
  I read CompSci at UCL graduating in 2006. Of the people I'm still in touch with, most do Java at ibanks or went on to non-computer work. The remainder are smattered about higher education, bioinformatics and the web-startup scene. Not a one has had trouble finding work, and they all studied a lot harder than I did.
barrkel 14y ago
Bear in mind that this blog post is 2 years old and relates to stats that are 3 years old; and that finance was and is a fairly major industry in the UK.
ig1 14y ago
I used to run a university comparison site largely based upon HESA data so I have a reasonable level of expertise in this field. The data is hugely flawed, primarily because under the title of "Computer Science" they're aggregating together all technology related degree. So it includes subjects like "Game Design" and "Multimedia" which have very low employability which brings down the average substantially. There's also a strong correlation between university quality and employment rate. At the top CS departments employment is often in the high 90s. I actually wrote to the government minister responsible for higher education (David Willets) on this precise issue expressing my concern that the poor classification of subjects was resulting in misleading news coverage which in turn would scare much-needed students away from studying Computer Science. Here's the reply I got: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/11248954/243427%20Signed%20letter%20to%20Imran%20Ghory.pdf https://dl.dropbox.com/u/11248954/243427%20Signed%20letter%2... (apologies for it being in PDF)
matheusalmeida 14y ago
Living and working in the UK for over a year now as a Software Engineer in a medium-sized company I see this article as a bit of a shock because every month I'm aware of available positions (including graduates) for developers that "want to get their hands dirty", i.e., working on core software tools like compilers and linkers and despite working closely with universities it's not easy to find new recruits willing to work on low-level development. I guess the reality can be different if we take into account the percentage of programmers that want to work on "web technologies" and that's a completely different market. All in all I think if one is a good developer, he/she will not have any problems finding a suitable position working on very interesting problems.
- mickeyp 14y ago
  Well, low-level roles are harder to come by, for one, but they also tend not to pay terribly well; especially as they're competing against Finance in London, which does. Here's my top tip for attracting amazing candidates: pay them a lot of money. Simple as that.
  - ig1 14y ago
    Speaking as someone who used to hire low-level developers in the financial sector (i.e we could pay them an above average salary) I'd disagree. There's only a handful of universities now which teach C to a decent level, and if a candidate doesn't know C already it's very hard to tell if they'll be able to conceptually handle pointers and indirect referencing. So there's actually a very small pool to recruit from compared to the number of vacancies. If someone can't understand pointers, recursion, etc, then paying them extra money isn't going to make them understand.
    - Argentevenin 14y ago
      A lot of finance companies have rejected me for placements for low A level grades despite high firsts in all my CS modules, solid extra curricular's etc...
      - 14y ago
Eliezer 14y ago
I wonder if this is due to graduating people who can't code Fizzbuzz.
- Aaronneyer 14y ago
  My thoughts exactly. Most schools teach Computer Science, very few schools teach you how to actually program. People have to learn that on their own, and many people don't, and as a result, aren't able to actually program.
  - kleiba 14y ago
    That's because Computer Science != Programming.
    - rorrr 14y ago
      I'd say computer science should contain programming. Pure theory is for mathematicians.
- tokenadult 14y ago
  I wonder if this is due to graduating people who can't code Fizzbuzz. Eliezer, so far not many people on HN have believed my little anecdote about this, but there appear to be graduates with master's degrees in computer science from reasonably decent universities in the United States who can't pass "Write a program using a for loop to print the integers from 1 to 100" as an initial interview screen! http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4603414 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4603414 There may be some people with accredited degrees in computer science who are very lacking indeed in the most elementary programming skills.
mvc 14y ago
The problem for UK devs is that everything is so London centric. I bet there's lots of open positions there and lots of talented but unemployed (or underpaid) developers in Liverpool, Newcastle and Glasgow. I used to be one of them until I moved. I've seen attempts to try and create a UK equivalent of "Silicon Valley". Where do they put it? London!!
- simonh 14y ago
  Frankly, any attempt to put it anywhere else would just end up with a split between the anointed location and London. There's already a strong telecoms presence in west London along with a fair few IT companies anyway. When you have a genuine choice then fine, choose another region, but when the choice has already essentially been made by the market, why introduce potentially damaging artificial distortions to try and fight it? Having said that, Cambridge is sort of it's own little world of specialist IT outfits but it just doesn't have the scale to become much more than it already is, or to develop synergies with other industries.
  - mickeyp 14y ago
    The other issue with Cambridge is that they think they can get away with paying people -- senior people -- £35,000 a year\. Even if you hate London you're better off contracting in the midlands where you can probably get £350/day if you're not completely hopeless. \ based roughly on my experience investigating the job market there a few years ago.
    - crntaylor 14y ago
      I know developers with 3-5 years experience in Cambridge earning significantly more than that. Redgate Software, for example, pays its junior (i.e. zero experience) engineers £35k / year.
      - mickeyp 14y ago
        Really? That's good to know. Glad to know the salaries are higher.
chollida1 14y ago
When I went to university I took engineering instead of Comp Sci. The reason being is that most places when they need an developer will hire someone with pretty much any background, and those that do care will usually take an engineer, math or physics grad as being equivalent to a comp sci grad. On the other hand when a company goes to hire an engineer, they really can only hire an engineer as stipulated by law.
marshallp 14y ago
Things will get much worse for everyone with the coming of intelligent software in the next couple of years. This is the calm before the storm.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]

29 points by sean-duffy 14y ago

After just the other week observing a few articles on HN regarding the situation with jobs for CS graduates in the US, one article stating a 2:1 ratio between the number of available jobs for developers and the number of developers, this came as much of a surprise to me, as well as being pretty disconcerting since I'm in the UK and planning to study CS next year. I'm very interested to hear the opinions on this from those actually in the industry, is the situation really that polar opposite between the US and the UK?

activepeanut 14y ago
Your real education starts after you graduate, but nobody wants to invest in employee's education, regardless of their age. Things only get better after a couple of years of experience. You have a better idea of what you're doing while being very cheap to employ.
tsotha 14y ago
The job market for developers is pretty good in the US, but graduates will have a tough time landing that first job. That's the way it's always been, though.
sgk284 14y ago
The article is two years old. I wouldn't read too much into it.
crntaylor 14y ago
If you study at a good university, and learn useful things while you study, and build cool things in your spare time, then you will have no problem finding a job. The company I work for routinely pays £100k+ ($160k+) per year to fresh computer science grads if they're really good.
- Alan01252 14y ago
  I find this figure hard to accept. £100k+ a year for a developer with no experience? I've been doing software development for a while now, and know more than a few developers, and I guarantee you not one of them started on anywhere near £100k a year. £100k a year is around what I know experienced contractual developers earn working for big Canary Wharf banks. If this is true, then please let me know the name of the company and I'll apply right now.
  - crntaylor 14y ago
    That number includes bonus - but it's certainly accurate. These guys might have no commercial experience, but they certainly have plenty of programming experience (and are typically top 1 or 2 in their year at university). I've emailed you the name of the company using the contact form on your website. We look forward to your application!
    - Alan01252 14y ago
      Well you've successfully called my bluff.... Unfortunately I have no particular interest in that industry, and more importantly, if I'm honest, wouldn't have a chance of getting through the application stage.
- njs12345 14y ago
  Really? Even my friends (from Cambridge) who went into finance aren't earning nearly that much in base salary. Is that including bonuses and other benefits?
  - crntaylor 14y ago
    It's including bonus, but no other benefits.
vmind 14y ago
As long as you gain some experience in addition to your CS degree there are plenty of programming jobs around, though they are largely concentrated in London and Cambridge (Quant jobs in London, other more general programming in both locations, quite a bit of hardware around Cambridge too). The larger employers often recruit directly through University career fairs. There's still a high demand for good developers in the UK, main issue in recruitment is sifting through the many applicants for positions who, even with experience, show no aptitude for the job.

cbgrey 14y ago

And yet as an employer (not in the UK though) I have a hard time finding talented developers.

wheaties 14y ago
Here's the three step trick that works across the board: 1. Pay more 2. Offer amazing benefits. 3. Sponsor tech events and become active in a tech community. That's what I say to everyone who "can't find anyone decent." Decent people can pick and choose at the moment. If they aren't choosing you, you're not giving them enough reasons.
- mickeyp 14y ago
  Actually, you know, you just need #1 if you're hiring people who aren't in their early 20s, or something. Most "help us solve hard problems!" technology firms/startups in London simply don't pay that well, and that makes it hard to attract the older, experienced developers with families. Hiring contractors is another way of quickly getting access to a very large pool of skilled workers, but I find that most smaller companies never bother, even though the TOC of having a contractor on board may not be all that much more than a permanent employee.
- ryanhuff 14y ago
  Just to add to your post, an (unfortunate) reality for many companies looking for good back-office (IT) developers is that many of the most qualified just aren't interested in the company's work or industry, which requires even more focus on #1 and #2. In my experience, many of these same companies don't understand why they can't find people, but can't fathom addressing #1 and #2.
yardie 14y ago
I assume by talented you mean experienced. There is also the other talent of showing promise, but most companies don't bother with that and prefer the ones that the ones that come out the womb as objc rockstars.
- 14y ago

nickporter 14y ago

Not terribly suprising... I think that most computer science grads are not interested in building enterprise software or rails web apps, but would rather work on advancing the field of theoretical computer science. Unfortunately, I doubt there's much demand nowadays for this type of work.

alinajaf 14y ago
I read CompSci at UCL graduating in 2006. Of the people I'm still in touch with, most do Java at ibanks or went on to non-computer work. The remainder are smattered about higher education, bioinformatics and the web-startup scene. Not a one has had trouble finding work, and they all studied a lot harder than I did.

barrkel 14y ago

Bear in mind that this blog post is 2 years old and relates to stats that are 3 years old; and that finance was and is a fairly major industry in the UK.

ig1 14y ago

I used to run a university comparison site largely based upon HESA data so I have a reasonable level of expertise in this field. The data is hugely flawed, primarily because under the title of "Computer Science" they're aggregating together all technology related degree. So it includes subjects like "Game Design" and "Multimedia" which have very low employability which brings down the average substantially. There's also a strong correlation between university quality and employment rate. At the top CS departments employment is often in the high 90s. I actually wrote to the government minister responsible for higher education (David Willets) on this precise issue expressing my concern that the poor classification of subjects was resulting in misleading news coverage which in turn would scare much-needed students away from studying Computer Science. Here's the reply I got: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/11248954/243427%20Signed%20letter%20to%20Imran%20Ghory.pdf https://dl.dropbox.com/u/11248954/243427%20Signed%20letter%2... (apologies for it being in PDF)

matheusalmeida 14y ago

Living and working in the UK for over a year now as a Software Engineer in a medium-sized company I see this article as a bit of a shock because every month I'm aware of available positions (including graduates) for developers that "want to get their hands dirty", i.e., working on core software tools like compilers and linkers and despite working closely with universities it's not easy to find new recruits willing to work on low-level development. I guess the reality can be different if we take into account the percentage of programmers that want to work on "web technologies" and that's a completely different market. All in all I think if one is a good developer, he/she will not have any problems finding a suitable position working on very interesting problems.

mickeyp 14y ago
Well, low-level roles are harder to come by, for one, but they also tend not to pay terribly well; especially as they're competing against Finance in London, which does. Here's my top tip for attracting amazing candidates: pay them a lot of money. Simple as that.
- ig1 14y ago
  Speaking as someone who used to hire low-level developers in the financial sector (i.e we could pay them an above average salary) I'd disagree. There's only a handful of universities now which teach C to a decent level, and if a candidate doesn't know C already it's very hard to tell if they'll be able to conceptually handle pointers and indirect referencing. So there's actually a very small pool to recruit from compared to the number of vacancies. If someone can't understand pointers, recursion, etc, then paying them extra money isn't going to make them understand.
  - Argentevenin 14y ago
    A lot of finance companies have rejected me for placements for low A level grades despite high firsts in all my CS modules, solid extra curricular's etc...
    - 14y ago

Eliezer 14y ago

I wonder if this is due to graduating people who can't code Fizzbuzz.

Aaronneyer 14y ago
My thoughts exactly. Most schools teach Computer Science, very few schools teach you how to actually program. People have to learn that on their own, and many people don't, and as a result, aren't able to actually program.
- kleiba 14y ago
  That's because Computer Science != Programming.
  - rorrr 14y ago
    I'd say computer science should contain programming. Pure theory is for mathematicians.
tokenadult 14y ago
I wonder if this is due to graduating people who can't code Fizzbuzz. Eliezer, so far not many people on HN have believed my little anecdote about this, but there appear to be graduates with master's degrees in computer science from reasonably decent universities in the United States who can't pass "Write a program using a for loop to print the integers from 1 to 100" as an initial interview screen! http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4603414 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4603414 There may be some people with accredited degrees in computer science who are very lacking indeed in the most elementary programming skills.

mvc 14y ago

The problem for UK devs is that everything is so London centric. I bet there's lots of open positions there and lots of talented but unemployed (or underpaid) developers in Liverpool, Newcastle and Glasgow. I used to be one of them until I moved. I've seen attempts to try and create a UK equivalent of "Silicon Valley". Where do they put it? London!!

simonh 14y ago
Frankly, any attempt to put it anywhere else would just end up with a split between the anointed location and London. There's already a strong telecoms presence in west London along with a fair few IT companies anyway. When you have a genuine choice then fine, choose another region, but when the choice has already essentially been made by the market, why introduce potentially damaging artificial distortions to try and fight it? Having said that, Cambridge is sort of it's own little world of specialist IT outfits but it just doesn't have the scale to become much more than it already is, or to develop synergies with other industries.
- mickeyp 14y ago
  The other issue with Cambridge is that they think they can get away with paying people -- senior people -- £35,000 a year\. Even if you hate London you're better off contracting in the midlands where you can probably get £350/day if you're not completely hopeless. \ based roughly on my experience investigating the job market there a few years ago.
  - crntaylor 14y ago
    I know developers with 3-5 years experience in Cambridge earning significantly more than that. Redgate Software, for example, pays its junior (i.e. zero experience) engineers £35k / year.
    - mickeyp 14y ago
      Really? That's good to know. Glad to know the salaries are higher.

chollida1 14y ago

When I went to university I took engineering instead of Comp Sci. The reason being is that most places when they need an developer will hire someone with pretty much any background, and those that do care will usually take an engineer, math or physics grad as being equivalent to a comp sci grad. On the other hand when a company goes to hire an engineer, they really can only hire an engineer as stipulated by law.

marshallp 14y ago

Things will get much worse for everyone with the coming of intelligent software in the next couple of years. This is the calm before the storm.

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]