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I have to wonder if Apple will allow any of this to move forward in the W3C standards committee since they've been blocking many things that would make web brow

by leptons 8mo ago

I have to wonder if Apple will allow any of this to move forward in the W3C standards committee since they've been blocking many things that would make web browsers as capable as native apps. Apple perceives web-based applications as chipping away at their app store (which makes them money), and so they cripple their Safari browser and then force all mobile browsers on iOS to use their browser engine, no exceptions, so that developers are forced to make a native app where Apple can then charge the developers (and thus the users) for a cut of any sales made through the app. It's one reason the DOJ started suing Apple, but I fear that may have been sidelined due to politics. https://www.justice.gov/archives/opa/media/1344546/dl?inline https://www.justice.gov/archives/opa/media/1344546/dl?inline

neonstatic 8mo ago
I for one am thankful to them for it. I think we need a return to the real native. The JS/Web-slop has gone too far.
- aacid 8mo ago
  I personally hate that I need to download app from every company for every service they offer. On the other hand I love tje simplicity of opening webpage, do what I want to do there and forget it. Probably 80% of app in my phone are used very rarely, often just once yet they still sit there, getting updates, requesting permissions and sometimes eating battery... good web app can do everything native app can.
  - speefers 8mo ago
    [dead]
  - neonstatic 8mo ago
    > good web app can do everything native app can. I could not disagree more
    - leptons 8mo ago
      Your disagreement only remains valid because of Apple using their blocking power to quash web APIs from becoming standards. You can shill all you want for Apple, but they are being sued by the DOJ for abusive business tactics, which include leveraging their vote in the W3C to prevent web browsers on their platform from being as capable as native apps. https://www.justice.gov/archives/opa/media/1344546/dl?inline https://www.justice.gov/archives/opa/media/1344546/dl?inline
      - neonstatic 8mo ago
        Sorry, but you are the one obsessed with Apple for some reason and are projecting the opposite of that (shilling) on me. I don't have any particular reason to favor Apple. I do, however, notice that I have never used a program that was built with either a web stack or a gc language stack, that wasn't getting slower over time, wouldn't cause strange issues, and wouldn't have crippled UI to match whatever the stack's limitations have been at the time. IMO the right direction is developing (or adopting) modern native languages. If the "price" for that is some web standard being stuck, I personally am totally okay with that. I am sick of this idea that the web browser is almost an OS. It was supposed to serve web pages.
- gumby271 8mo ago
  But the app-slop is totally fine right? Apple controlling every piece of software on my phone hasn't gone too far? Empowering the web to compete with Apple and Google's native locked down options is the only viable alternative I see.
  - neonstatic 8mo ago
    Problem, as I see it, is that these "native locked down options" are very often just webpages in disguise, which is also webslop imo
    - gumby271 8mo ago
      The native locked down options are the natives apps you're advocating for, I don't understand. They're the Swift/uikit or Koltin/jetpack apps. It sounds like you don't like web technology in general and would rather everyone do it the centralized Apple/Google way?
      - neonstatic 8mo ago
        Kotlin is not native. And yes, I don't like web technology. That doesn't imply doing it in Company A / B / C way, it implies preference for compiled programs that run natively in their respective environments with full utilization of resources those environments provide, e.g. hardware access, software standards etc.
        gumby271 7mo ago
        Sorry I just saw this, if Kotlin isn't native, then what is the "native" way to write android apps?
flohofwoe 8mo ago
This is a nice conspiracy theory but doesn't match facts like Safari implementing the WebGPU standard at a faster pace than Firefox. Safari might not be great in some areas, but their WASM/WebGPU/WebAudio support is in pretty good shape.
- lyu07282 8mo ago
  Push Notifications, Web Bluetooth, Web NFC, User Idle Detection, the list goes on and on. Not even counting the hundreds of #wontfix bugs in their css engine. Its not a conspiracy theory if you recognize their incentives and consistent anti-consumer behavior for fucking decades.
  - troad 8mo ago
    > Web Bluetooth, Web NFC These are things that literally everyone but Google thinks are terrible ideas. Why don't you flip the conspiracy around and ask yourself why Google, the world's largest advertising agency and data hoover, wants browsers, a category dominated by Google, to have unmediated access to ever more user, system, and local network data?
    - deleted 8mo ago
      [deleted]
    - leptons 7mo ago
      That's nonsense. There's plenty of people that want those APIs that don't work at Google. And it does not give Google "unmediated access" - you have to explicitly opt-in to allow the browser to use them when a website requests access to these APIs. But of course, don't let the facts get in the way of your fanboyism for Apple.
      - troad 7mo ago
        And when it's normalised for firmware updates to happen via WebHID and WebUSB? Saying no will seem as fringe as browsing the web with NoScript. It's already the main way to upgrade keyboard firmware for a lot of mechanical keyboards, and it only works on Chrome. Thrilling developments for Google. >> But of course, don't let the facts get in the way of your fanboyism for Apple. Mate, I didn't even mention Apple. You're the one with the fixation here. Mozilla/Firefox is also deeply opposed to these anti-features.

by leptons 8mo ago

neonstatic 8mo ago

I for one am thankful to them for it. I think we need a return to the real native. The JS/Web-slop has gone too far.

aacid 8mo ago
I personally hate that I need to download app from every company for every service they offer. On the other hand I love tje simplicity of opening webpage, do what I want to do there and forget it. Probably 80% of app in my phone are used very rarely, often just once yet they still sit there, getting updates, requesting permissions and sometimes eating battery... good web app can do everything native app can.
- speefers 8mo ago
  [dead]
- neonstatic 8mo ago
  > good web app can do everything native app can. I could not disagree more
  - leptons 8mo ago
    Your disagreement only remains valid because of Apple using their blocking power to quash web APIs from becoming standards. You can shill all you want for Apple, but they are being sued by the DOJ for abusive business tactics, which include leveraging their vote in the W3C to prevent web browsers on their platform from being as capable as native apps. https://www.justice.gov/archives/opa/media/1344546/dl?inline https://www.justice.gov/archives/opa/media/1344546/dl?inline
    - neonstatic 8mo ago
      Sorry, but you are the one obsessed with Apple for some reason and are projecting the opposite of that (shilling) on me. I don't have any particular reason to favor Apple. I do, however, notice that I have never used a program that was built with either a web stack or a gc language stack, that wasn't getting slower over time, wouldn't cause strange issues, and wouldn't have crippled UI to match whatever the stack's limitations have been at the time. IMO the right direction is developing (or adopting) modern native languages. If the "price" for that is some web standard being stuck, I personally am totally okay with that. I am sick of this idea that the web browser is almost an OS. It was supposed to serve web pages.
gumby271 8mo ago
But the app-slop is totally fine right? Apple controlling every piece of software on my phone hasn't gone too far? Empowering the web to compete with Apple and Google's native locked down options is the only viable alternative I see.
- neonstatic 8mo ago
  Problem, as I see it, is that these "native locked down options" are very often just webpages in disguise, which is also webslop imo
  - gumby271 8mo ago
    The native locked down options are the natives apps you're advocating for, I don't understand. They're the Swift/uikit or Koltin/jetpack apps. It sounds like you don't like web technology in general and would rather everyone do it the centralized Apple/Google way?
    - neonstatic 8mo ago
      Kotlin is not native. And yes, I don't like web technology. That doesn't imply doing it in Company A / B / C way, it implies preference for compiled programs that run natively in their respective environments with full utilization of resources those environments provide, e.g. hardware access, software standards etc.
      - gumby271 7mo ago
        Sorry I just saw this, if Kotlin isn't native, then what is the "native" way to write android apps?

flohofwoe 8mo ago

This is a nice conspiracy theory but doesn't match facts like Safari implementing the WebGPU standard at a faster pace than Firefox. Safari might not be great in some areas, but their WASM/WebGPU/WebAudio support is in pretty good shape.

lyu07282 8mo ago
Push Notifications, Web Bluetooth, Web NFC, User Idle Detection, the list goes on and on. Not even counting the hundreds of #wontfix bugs in their css engine. Its not a conspiracy theory if you recognize their incentives and consistent anti-consumer behavior for fucking decades.
- troad 8mo ago
  > Web Bluetooth, Web NFC These are things that literally everyone but Google thinks are terrible ideas. Why don't you flip the conspiracy around and ask yourself why Google, the world's largest advertising agency and data hoover, wants browsers, a category dominated by Google, to have unmediated access to ever more user, system, and local network data?
  - deleted 8mo ago
    [deleted]
  - leptons 7mo ago
    That's nonsense. There's plenty of people that want those APIs that don't work at Google. And it does not give Google "unmediated access" - you have to explicitly opt-in to allow the browser to use them when a website requests access to these APIs. But of course, don't let the facts get in the way of your fanboyism for Apple.
    - troad 7mo ago
      And when it's normalised for firmware updates to happen via WebHID and WebUSB? Saying no will seem as fringe as browsing the web with NoScript. It's already the main way to upgrade keyboard firmware for a lot of mechanical keyboards, and it only works on Chrome. Thrilling developments for Google. >> But of course, don't let the facts get in the way of your fanboyism for Apple. Mate, I didn't even mention Apple. You're the one with the fixation here. Mozilla/Firefox is also deeply opposed to these anti-features.