3 ms·

Sorting physical ballots is very easy to automate. You get the security of paper with the speed of computing.

WalterBright 8mo ago
In Washington State we get mailed ballots, which we fill in and mail in. But the ballots are not even printed on security paper. They don't have a serial number on them, either.
- mjevans 8mo ago
  The filled out ballot is intended to be fully anonymous. It is then slipped into a security sleeve to make it harder to read within the envelope. The envelope is sealed and signed by the citizen. Security is provided by the envelope which is the attestation that the citizen cast their ballot. Offhand, the county voting office is likely required to retain the ballot as part of the state/federal records. I haven't checked but that or a centralized ballot repository are the only things that make sense.
  - 8bitsrule 8mo ago
    >The envelope is sealed and signed by the citizen. Alas, the signature must reasonably match one on file (from somewhere ... presumably a state ID) or the ballot may be rejected. Since human signatures can vary wildly for reasons, this non-deterministic feature requires a human guess for -each- ballot. No mechanism to dispute that decision.
    - saulpw 7mo ago
      Mine has been disputed several times (because it changed due to name change and wasn't updated). There is a very clear mechanism to dispute that decision, and in fact that's why they ask for your phone number and/or email on the envelope--so when they want to dispute it, they have a way of contact for you to do what's necessary to make the ballot count (provisionally, only if the race is close enough for your vote to matter).
  - WalterBright 8mo ago
    Once the ballot is removed from the envelope, it is just a sheet of paper with votes on it. There's no name, serial number, or signature on it. Hence "stuffing" in more ballots cannot be detected. Printing the ballots on security paper will not eliminate this risk, but it will make it much harder. I don't know if there is an auditable "chain of custody" of ballots from mailbox to the counting center. The fraud here would be "losing" ballots that are from precincts that tilt significantly in one direction or another.
    - tdeck 7mo ago
      > Hence "stuffing" in more ballots cannot be detected. The whole envelope opening and ballot counting process is recorded and streamed live from multiple angles. https://kingcounty.gov/en/dept/elections/about-us/security-and-accountability/elections-security-measures https://kingcounty.gov/en/dept/elections/about-us/security-a...
      - WalterBright 7mo ago
        That sounds good. But it doesn't account for the ballot from your mail box to the processing center. Nor does it check citizenship & residency status. Ballot harvesting is also legal and takes place in Washington state.
        throwaway85825 7mo ago
        The Turkish citizen who did a mass shooting in a mall voted in Washington.
        tdeck 7mo ago
        Those things are checked based on the envelope, as other people already pointed out to you in this thread.
        WalterBright 7mo ago
        Other people pointed out other things to me, not those.

In Washington State we get mailed ballots, which we fill in and mail in. But the ballots are not even printed on security paper. They don't have a serial number on them, either.

mjevans 8mo ago
The filled out ballot is intended to be fully anonymous. It is then slipped into a security sleeve to make it harder to read within the envelope. The envelope is sealed and signed by the citizen. Security is provided by the envelope which is the attestation that the citizen cast their ballot. Offhand, the county voting office is likely required to retain the ballot as part of the state/federal records. I haven't checked but that or a centralized ballot repository are the only things that make sense.
- 8bitsrule 8mo ago
  >The envelope is sealed and signed by the citizen. Alas, the signature must reasonably match one on file (from somewhere ... presumably a state ID) or the ballot may be rejected. Since human signatures can vary wildly for reasons, this non-deterministic feature requires a human guess for -each- ballot. No mechanism to dispute that decision.
  - saulpw 7mo ago
    Mine has been disputed several times (because it changed due to name change and wasn't updated). There is a very clear mechanism to dispute that decision, and in fact that's why they ask for your phone number and/or email on the envelope--so when they want to dispute it, they have a way of contact for you to do what's necessary to make the ballot count (provisionally, only if the race is close enough for your vote to matter).
- WalterBright 8mo ago
  Once the ballot is removed from the envelope, it is just a sheet of paper with votes on it. There's no name, serial number, or signature on it. Hence "stuffing" in more ballots cannot be detected. Printing the ballots on security paper will not eliminate this risk, but it will make it much harder. I don't know if there is an auditable "chain of custody" of ballots from mailbox to the counting center. The fraud here would be "losing" ballots that are from precincts that tilt significantly in one direction or another.
  - tdeck 7mo ago
    > Hence "stuffing" in more ballots cannot be detected. The whole envelope opening and ballot counting process is recorded and streamed live from multiple angles. https://kingcounty.gov/en/dept/elections/about-us/security-and-accountability/elections-security-measures https://kingcounty.gov/en/dept/elections/about-us/security-a...
    - WalterBright 7mo ago
      That sounds good. But it doesn't account for the ballot from your mail box to the processing center. Nor does it check citizenship & residency status. Ballot harvesting is also legal and takes place in Washington state.
      - throwaway85825 7mo ago
        The Turkish citizen who did a mass shooting in a mall voted in Washington.
      - tdeck 7mo ago
        Those things are checked based on the envelope, as other people already pointed out to you in this thread.
        WalterBright 7mo ago
        Other people pointed out other things to me, not those.