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> There is a real benefit to having the American experiment prominent and continuing. The American 'experiment' is one long history of the US doing really horr

> There is a real benefit to having the American experiment prominent and continuing. The American 'experiment' is one long history of the US doing really horrible things, but giving ourselves a pass because we dress it up in the name of freedom and self-determination. If you ignore our slavery and the genocide of Native Americans, it's easy to paint China's slavery and genocide as evils that are unique somehow. The real experiment of America is in seeing how self-deluded we can become if we continuously reinforce the false premise that our institutions are intrinsically good (or at least, nebulously "better").

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kelnos 7mo ago
The difference is that China's slavery and genocide is happening today, within its own borders. Is that true of the US? Is there state-sanctioned/supported slavery in the US? Is the US committing genocide within its own borders? Arguably not? This doesn't make the US perfect or wonderful. We've been politically and militarily supporting a genocide in Gaza, as a stark example. But "the US did slavery and genocide in the past" and "China is doing slavery and genocide now" doesn't make the US and China equivalent today. And on top of that, I can go out and protest my country supporting Israel's garbage in Gaza. If I were a Chinese citizen and tried to do something like that in China, I'd be jailed.
- ang_cire 7mo ago
  > Is there state-sanctioned/supported slavery in the US? Thank you for proving my point about our propaganda. Yes, it absolutely is. Slave labor is explicitly allowed for prisoners, under the 13th Amendment's "Penal exception clause"[1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_exception_clause https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_exception_clause And that's not some unused vestigial thing, forced labor of prisoners (slavery) is endemic. [2] [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_labor_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_labor_in_the_United_Stat... Many states make prison labor optional at least in principle (though some like Alabama have been proven to punish prisoners with e.g. solitary confinement to 'compel' them to work). Some (Red States, mostly) do not make it optional, and even don't pay prisoners: > Arkansas possesses a concerning history of coercive and uncompensated prison work. Inmates, primarily Black, have been compelled to labor on extensive state prison farms, including the Cummins and Tucker Units, located on former slave estates. > In fiscal year 2019, Arkansas' unpaid jail labor generated over $4.4 million in externally marketed agricultural products, alongside an extra $7.5 million designated for prison food services.[69] Eyewitness testimonies indicate that imprisoned laborers experienced severe mistreatment—disordered working environments, maltreatment, and insufficient safeguards—evoking parallels to historical slavery.[70]
JumpCrisscross 7mo ago
> real experiment of America is in seeing how self-deluded we can become How would you contrast the responses to the Tiananmen Square Massacre [1] and that of Pretti’s shooting? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989_Tiananmen_Square_protests_and_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989_Tiananmen_Square_protests...
- ang_cire 7mo ago
  I think this is a meaningless question. Being allowed to discuss your atrocities versus not, but not having the choice to actually stop doing atrocities, is a strange point of pride. Being allowed to discuss our wars in the Middle East clearly doesn't prevent them. Being allowed to discuss our immoral and unconstitutional treatment of immigrants clearly isn't stopping it. We are just as unwilling as a society forcefully to halt our governments' evils as China is their's. Our government is just as bloodthirsty and fascist as their's, regardless of whether you're allowed to point that out or not (also, Palantir is adding you to the database if you do, we just haven't found out what they're planning to do with the database yet).

deleted 7mo ago

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kelnos 7mo ago

The difference is that China's slavery and genocide is happening today, within its own borders. Is that true of the US? Is there state-sanctioned/supported slavery in the US? Is the US committing genocide within its own borders? Arguably not? This doesn't make the US perfect or wonderful. We've been politically and militarily supporting a genocide in Gaza, as a stark example. But "the US did slavery and genocide in the past" and "China is doing slavery and genocide now" doesn't make the US and China equivalent today. And on top of that, I can go out and protest my country supporting Israel's garbage in Gaza. If I were a Chinese citizen and tried to do something like that in China, I'd be jailed.

ang_cire 7mo ago
> Is there state-sanctioned/supported slavery in the US? Thank you for proving my point about our propaganda. Yes, it absolutely is. Slave labor is explicitly allowed for prisoners, under the 13th Amendment's "Penal exception clause"[1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_exception_clause https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_exception_clause And that's not some unused vestigial thing, forced labor of prisoners (slavery) is endemic. [2] [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_labor_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_labor_in_the_United_Stat... Many states make prison labor optional at least in principle (though some like Alabama have been proven to punish prisoners with e.g. solitary confinement to 'compel' them to work). Some (Red States, mostly) do not make it optional, and even don't pay prisoners: > Arkansas possesses a concerning history of coercive and uncompensated prison work. Inmates, primarily Black, have been compelled to labor on extensive state prison farms, including the Cummins and Tucker Units, located on former slave estates. > In fiscal year 2019, Arkansas' unpaid jail labor generated over $4.4 million in externally marketed agricultural products, alongside an extra $7.5 million designated for prison food services.[69] Eyewitness testimonies indicate that imprisoned laborers experienced severe mistreatment—disordered working environments, maltreatment, and insufficient safeguards—evoking parallels to historical slavery.[70]

JumpCrisscross 7mo ago

> real experiment of America is in seeing how self-deluded we can become How would you contrast the responses to the Tiananmen Square Massacre [1] and that of Pretti’s shooting? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989_Tiananmen_Square_protests_and_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989_Tiananmen_Square_protests...

ang_cire 7mo ago
I think this is a meaningless question. Being allowed to discuss your atrocities versus not, but not having the choice to actually stop doing atrocities, is a strange point of pride. Being allowed to discuss our wars in the Middle East clearly doesn't prevent them. Being allowed to discuss our immoral and unconstitutional treatment of immigrants clearly isn't stopping it. We are just as unwilling as a society forcefully to halt our governments' evils as China is their's. Our government is just as bloodthirsty and fascist as their's, regardless of whether you're allowed to point that out or not (also, Palantir is adding you to the database if you do, we just haven't found out what they're planning to do with the database yet).