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I’m not saying we have widespread voter fraud. My gut feeling is that we don’t. But I’m a very trusting person. I always believe people when they ask for money

by rayiner 8mo ago

I’m not saying we have widespread voter fraud. My gut feeling is that we don’t. But I’m a very trusting person. I always believe people when they ask for money on the street because their car broke down. I don’t know how you can confidently say there isn’t meaningful voter fraud. How would you even verify past elections? You can point to millions spent on commissions and lawyers, but those can’t go back and generate data that was never contemporaneously collected. Think of it in terms of computer security. You had a telnet server exposed to the internet for years. You have no logs, and the machine got scrapped before you ever got access to it. How would you do a security audit to determine if anyone broke into the server? You could spend millions on a commission and have the commission declare there was no security breach, but that would be for show, right? You say people don’t look too hard for tax evasion, but people don’t look very hard for voter fraud as the voting is happening. And by its nature it’s something that you can’t reliably look for after the election has happened.

lobf 8mo ago
I think you need to start with proposing how a person could fraudulently vote. If you show up to the polling place, you need to list the name and address of a registered voter in that district. How do you know this information? If you use a relative or acquaintance whose name and address you know they're registered at, when they show up to vote it will be noted that they have already voted. They can then put in their preliminary ballot, and presumably their signature will more closely match the fraudulent one and the real one will be counted. There are enough basic hurdles to this that I don't see how it can even be done at scale.
- Muromec 8mo ago
  I always wondered (Clearly Not North America) How does one get on a list anyways? I would imagine getting on a list fraudlently leaves paper trail and this would have been discovered in 5 minutes retroactively, but I'm still curious.
  - lobf 8mo ago
    When you register to vote, you give your address as well as proof of eligibility to vote. That address is used to assign you a polling place, and also as an additional piece of data needed in order to filter out fakers. Your voting eligibility is checked before being added to the list, which also mitigates fakers. If you're trying to register in someone else's name, you have to pray that they don't register themselves or show up to the polls to vote. That's a gamble which prevents systematic individual voter fraud.
    - Muromec 8mo ago
      So... For each election, I have to register anew and the agency in charge has a backoffice is cross-checking this against... something? I guess they would first look if I was voting the last time? What if my birth certificate or whatever is from a different place. Do they assume I'm not risking using a forgery over politics (it's a fair assumption I would say)?
      - WalterBright 8mo ago
        My original birth certificate was old and had decayed, so I wanted a new one. I googled "how do I get a copy of my birth certificate", followed the instructions, and received a brand new certificate. (I was a bit concerned because the hospital I was born in had been razed and the whole area redeveloped 50 years ago, but there was no problem.) A couple weeks ago I went to the nearest DMV and got a RealID. It took 15 minutes. (The RealID is proof of citizenship and residency.) The DMV people and the people in the passport office are very helpful in how to get the necessary proof.
        Muromec 8mo ago
        >The DMV people and the people in the passport office are very helpful in how to get the necessary proof. That's nice and matches my obviously-not-north-american experience. Have you considered that you are not the target audience of the voter suppression because of something ?
- WalterBright 8mo ago
  In Washington State, to register to vote you have to assert you are a citizen and a resident. But no verification is done on that.
  - triceratops 8mo ago
    > But no verification is done on that The official website says they collect either a driver's license number, state ID number, or the last 4 digits of your Social Security number. With that it should be trivial to flag potentially fraudulent applications for further investigation. Do you have a source that says they don't use that information for verification? https://www.sos.wa.gov/elections/voters/voter-registration/register-vote-washington https://www.sos.wa.gov/elections/voters/voter-registration/r...
    - WalterBright 8mo ago
      "An official list of citizens to check citizenship status against does not exist. If the required information for voter registration is included – name; address; date of birth; a signature attesting to the truth of the information provided on the application; and an indication in the box confirming the individual is a U.S. citizen – the person must be added to the voter registration file. Modifying state law would require an act of the state legislature, and federal law, an act of Congress. Neither the Secretary of State nor the county auditor has lawmaking authority." https://www.thurstoncountywa.gov/departments/auditor/elections/frequently-asked-questions-elections https://www.thurstoncountywa.gov/departments/auditor/electio...
      - triceratops 8mo ago
        That does say anyone can challenge a registration. But I agree it's dumb not to perform basic checks with provided information.
        WalterBright 8mo ago
        > That does say anyone can challenge a registration. Yes, it does. But who and how is someone going to challenge 100,000 registrations? This issue was brought up in the paper, and people objected to it saying such was an invasion of privacy.
qotgalaxy 8mo ago
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by rayiner 8mo ago

lobf 8mo ago

I think you need to start with proposing how a person could fraudulently vote. If you show up to the polling place, you need to list the name and address of a registered voter in that district. How do you know this information? If you use a relative or acquaintance whose name and address you know they're registered at, when they show up to vote it will be noted that they have already voted. They can then put in their preliminary ballot, and presumably their signature will more closely match the fraudulent one and the real one will be counted. There are enough basic hurdles to this that I don't see how it can even be done at scale.

Muromec 8mo ago
I always wondered (Clearly Not North America) How does one get on a list anyways? I would imagine getting on a list fraudlently leaves paper trail and this would have been discovered in 5 minutes retroactively, but I'm still curious.
- lobf 8mo ago
  When you register to vote, you give your address as well as proof of eligibility to vote. That address is used to assign you a polling place, and also as an additional piece of data needed in order to filter out fakers. Your voting eligibility is checked before being added to the list, which also mitigates fakers. If you're trying to register in someone else's name, you have to pray that they don't register themselves or show up to the polls to vote. That's a gamble which prevents systematic individual voter fraud.
  - Muromec 8mo ago
    So... For each election, I have to register anew and the agency in charge has a backoffice is cross-checking this against... something? I guess they would first look if I was voting the last time? What if my birth certificate or whatever is from a different place. Do they assume I'm not risking using a forgery over politics (it's a fair assumption I would say)?
    - WalterBright 8mo ago
      My original birth certificate was old and had decayed, so I wanted a new one. I googled "how do I get a copy of my birth certificate", followed the instructions, and received a brand new certificate. (I was a bit concerned because the hospital I was born in had been razed and the whole area redeveloped 50 years ago, but there was no problem.) A couple weeks ago I went to the nearest DMV and got a RealID. It took 15 minutes. (The RealID is proof of citizenship and residency.) The DMV people and the people in the passport office are very helpful in how to get the necessary proof.
      - Muromec 8mo ago
        >The DMV people and the people in the passport office are very helpful in how to get the necessary proof. That's nice and matches my obviously-not-north-american experience. Have you considered that you are not the target audience of the voter suppression because of something ?
WalterBright 8mo ago
In Washington State, to register to vote you have to assert you are a citizen and a resident. But no verification is done on that.
- triceratops 8mo ago
  > But no verification is done on that The official website says they collect either a driver's license number, state ID number, or the last 4 digits of your Social Security number. With that it should be trivial to flag potentially fraudulent applications for further investigation. Do you have a source that says they don't use that information for verification? https://www.sos.wa.gov/elections/voters/voter-registration/register-vote-washington https://www.sos.wa.gov/elections/voters/voter-registration/r...
  - WalterBright 8mo ago
    "An official list of citizens to check citizenship status against does not exist. If the required information for voter registration is included – name; address; date of birth; a signature attesting to the truth of the information provided on the application; and an indication in the box confirming the individual is a U.S. citizen – the person must be added to the voter registration file. Modifying state law would require an act of the state legislature, and federal law, an act of Congress. Neither the Secretary of State nor the county auditor has lawmaking authority." https://www.thurstoncountywa.gov/departments/auditor/elections/frequently-asked-questions-elections https://www.thurstoncountywa.gov/departments/auditor/electio...
    - triceratops 8mo ago
      That does say anyone can challenge a registration. But I agree it's dumb not to perform basic checks with provided information.
      - WalterBright 8mo ago
        > That does say anyone can challenge a registration. Yes, it does. But who and how is someone going to challenge 100,000 registrations? This issue was brought up in the paper, and people objected to it saying such was an invasion of privacy.

qotgalaxy 8mo ago

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