4 ms·

A republic without the rule of law is not a republic anymore.

JumpCrisscross 7mo ago
> republic without the rule of law is not a republic anymore An observation one can make when comparing a republic with the rule of law to one that ain’t, whether across time or geography. There is a real benefit to having the American experiment prominent and continuing.
- BoredPositron 7mo ago
  Is there actually a benefit? Or are we just watching the slow motion collapse of another empire convinced of its own immortality? History is a graveyard of experiments that thought they were the exception to the rule.
  - JumpCrisscross 7mo ago
    > Is there actually a benefit? Or are we just watching the slow motion collapse of another empire convinced of its own immortality? These aren’t mutually exclusive. The world is better off for Athens and the Roman and Harrapan and Haudenosaunee republics. (Book request: history of the republic. I’ve struggled to find one.) The CCP with internal elections was interesting and a genuine riposte to broadly-enfranchised republics. Xi as a dictator is not, not.
    - BoredPositron 7mo ago
      But we are not talking about china.
      - JumpCrisscross 7mo ago
        > But we are not talking about china Author literally is.
        BoredPositron 7mo ago
        And in this subthread we are talking about republics which you are keen to mention china isn't.
        JumpCrisscross 7mo ago
        > in this subthread we are talking about republics which you are keen to mention china isn't This subthread is part of the broader discussion. There are lots of Reddit corners for debating whether America is a republic. I haven’t seen any novel arguments in a while. The argument for whether an American AI is useful out of an American republic, its dying republic or even its embers is the germane one here, and I think it speaks decisively in favor against the one that’s proudly autocratic without organized dissent.
        BoredPositron 7mo ago
        You are just sidestepping the discussion.
        JumpCrisscross 7mo ago
        > You are just sidestepping the discussion I'm avoiding an irrelevant sideline. Big difference.
        BoredPositron 7mo ago
        You started the sideline by diverging from another sideline. You are just wiggling around in all your discussions.
- ang_cire 7mo ago
  > There is a real benefit to having the American experiment prominent and continuing. The American 'experiment' is one long history of the US doing really horrible things, but giving ourselves a pass because we dress it up in the name of freedom and self-determination. If you ignore our slavery and the genocide of Native Americans, it's easy to paint China's slavery and genocide as evils that are unique somehow. The real experiment of America is in seeing how self-deluded we can become if we continuously reinforce the false premise that our institutions are intrinsically good (or at least, nebulously "better").
  - deleted 7mo ago
    [deleted]
  - kelnos 7mo ago
    The difference is that China's slavery and genocide is happening today, within its own borders. Is that true of the US? Is there state-sanctioned/supported slavery in the US? Is the US committing genocide within its own borders? Arguably not? This doesn't make the US perfect or wonderful. We've been politically and militarily supporting a genocide in Gaza, as a stark example. But "the US did slavery and genocide in the past" and "China is doing slavery and genocide now" doesn't make the US and China equivalent today. And on top of that, I can go out and protest my country supporting Israel's garbage in Gaza. If I were a Chinese citizen and tried to do something like that in China, I'd be jailed.
    - ang_cire 7mo ago
      > Is there state-sanctioned/supported slavery in the US? Thank you for proving my point about our propaganda. Yes, it absolutely is. Slave labor is explicitly allowed for prisoners, under the 13th Amendment's "Penal exception clause"[1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_exception_clause https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_exception_clause And that's not some unused vestigial thing, forced labor of prisoners (slavery) is endemic. [2] [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_labor_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_labor_in_the_United_Stat... Many states make prison labor optional at least in principle (though some like Alabama have been proven to punish prisoners with e.g. solitary confinement to 'compel' them to work). Some (Red States, mostly) do not make it optional, and even don't pay prisoners: > Arkansas possesses a concerning history of coercive and uncompensated prison work. Inmates, primarily Black, have been compelled to labor on extensive state prison farms, including the Cummins and Tucker Units, located on former slave estates. > In fiscal year 2019, Arkansas' unpaid jail labor generated over $4.4 million in externally marketed agricultural products, alongside an extra $7.5 million designated for prison food services.[69] Eyewitness testimonies indicate that imprisoned laborers experienced severe mistreatment—disordered working environments, maltreatment, and insufficient safeguards—evoking parallels to historical slavery.[70]

> republic without the rule of law is not a republic anymore An observation one can make when comparing a republic with the rule of law to one that ain’t, whether across time or geography. There is a real benefit to having the American experiment prominent and continuing.

BoredPositron 7mo ago
Is there actually a benefit? Or are we just watching the slow motion collapse of another empire convinced of its own immortality? History is a graveyard of experiments that thought they were the exception to the rule.
- JumpCrisscross 7mo ago
  > Is there actually a benefit? Or are we just watching the slow motion collapse of another empire convinced of its own immortality? These aren’t mutually exclusive. The world is better off for Athens and the Roman and Harrapan and Haudenosaunee republics. (Book request: history of the republic. I’ve struggled to find one.) The CCP with internal elections was interesting and a genuine riposte to broadly-enfranchised republics. Xi as a dictator is not, not.
  - BoredPositron 7mo ago
    But we are not talking about china.
    - JumpCrisscross 7mo ago
      > But we are not talking about china Author literally is.
      - BoredPositron 7mo ago
        And in this subthread we are talking about republics which you are keen to mention china isn't.
        JumpCrisscross 7mo ago
        > in this subthread we are talking about republics which you are keen to mention china isn't This subthread is part of the broader discussion. There are lots of Reddit corners for debating whether America is a republic. I haven’t seen any novel arguments in a while. The argument for whether an American AI is useful out of an American republic, its dying republic or even its embers is the germane one here, and I think it speaks decisively in favor against the one that’s proudly autocratic without organized dissent.
        BoredPositron 7mo ago
        You are just sidestepping the discussion.
        JumpCrisscross 7mo ago
        > You are just sidestepping the discussion I'm avoiding an irrelevant sideline. Big difference.
        BoredPositron 7mo ago
        You started the sideline by diverging from another sideline. You are just wiggling around in all your discussions.
ang_cire 7mo ago
> There is a real benefit to having the American experiment prominent and continuing. The American 'experiment' is one long history of the US doing really horrible things, but giving ourselves a pass because we dress it up in the name of freedom and self-determination. If you ignore our slavery and the genocide of Native Americans, it's easy to paint China's slavery and genocide as evils that are unique somehow. The real experiment of America is in seeing how self-deluded we can become if we continuously reinforce the false premise that our institutions are intrinsically good (or at least, nebulously "better").
- deleted 7mo ago
  [deleted]
- kelnos 7mo ago
  The difference is that China's slavery and genocide is happening today, within its own borders. Is that true of the US? Is there state-sanctioned/supported slavery in the US? Is the US committing genocide within its own borders? Arguably not? This doesn't make the US perfect or wonderful. We've been politically and militarily supporting a genocide in Gaza, as a stark example. But "the US did slavery and genocide in the past" and "China is doing slavery and genocide now" doesn't make the US and China equivalent today. And on top of that, I can go out and protest my country supporting Israel's garbage in Gaza. If I were a Chinese citizen and tried to do something like that in China, I'd be jailed.
  - ang_cire 7mo ago
    > Is there state-sanctioned/supported slavery in the US? Thank you for proving my point about our propaganda. Yes, it absolutely is. Slave labor is explicitly allowed for prisoners, under the 13th Amendment's "Penal exception clause"[1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_exception_clause https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_exception_clause And that's not some unused vestigial thing, forced labor of prisoners (slavery) is endemic. [2] [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_labor_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_labor_in_the_United_Stat... Many states make prison labor optional at least in principle (though some like Alabama have been proven to punish prisoners with e.g. solitary confinement to 'compel' them to work). Some (Red States, mostly) do not make it optional, and even don't pay prisoners: > Arkansas possesses a concerning history of coercive and uncompensated prison work. Inmates, primarily Black, have been compelled to labor on extensive state prison farms, including the Cummins and Tucker Units, located on former slave estates. > In fiscal year 2019, Arkansas' unpaid jail labor generated over $4.4 million in externally marketed agricultural products, alongside an extra $7.5 million designated for prison food services.[69] Eyewitness testimonies indicate that imprisoned laborers experienced severe mistreatment—disordered working environments, maltreatment, and insufficient safeguards—evoking parallels to historical slavery.[70]