5 ms·

I put my bet on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_psychogenic_illness https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_psychogenic_illness If the authorities have made the

I put my bet on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_psychogenic_illness https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_psychogenic_illness If the authorities have made the same conclusion, it would be very difficult to tell the affected individuals that. This is since there is a misconception that mass psychosis A) only happens to mentally "weak" persons. B) Symptoms are made up/"just in your imagination" But the symptoms are very much real, and it's not something that is easily treated. How mass psychosis can lead to actual medical illness is unknown, but the cause and effect is documented. For that reason it might appear as a cover up, when authorities avoid giving answers. Even though I'm familiar with the science behind mass psychosis illness, I would still probably have difficulties accepting that as an explanation if I were in a similar situation.

Nevermark 7mo ago
If that is so, why not acknowledge that the current working theory is that it is psychogenic, but that doesn’t make it any less real. The fact that psychogenic illness is not simply “weak” people, but a real phenomenon, strongly supports the fairness and necessity of offering treatment. The wikipedia article says when authorities publicly take the effects seriously it can induce more cases. But the example was of getting help from a witch doctor, which was a remarkably dysfunctional “validation” to add to an already complex problem. Another very dysfunctional “validation”: official denial, avoidance, obvious lack of work on solutions or mitigations, and all the trappings of a cover up! Being direct has so many benefits, vs indirect denial or bad faith “treatments”. It would be a reassuring response, to those in the same context without symptoms who are concerned about their own health. Direct responses, with care given, are also in a better position to find treatments for psychogenic symptoms, preventative practices that reduce vulnerability, or alter working theories of cause, as any other evidence emerges. Chronic anxiety and anxiety attacks are “psychosomatic” on an individual basis. But very real, often caused or impacted by working conditions, and important to diagnose and treat. Psychogenic illness should be the same. “Illness” is not a cause limited concept.
- bsder 7mo ago
  > Direct responses, with care given, are also in a better position to alter working theories as any other evidence emerges. The problem is that "mental illness" is a career limiting diagnosis. Security clearance personnel have the same problem as airplane pilots. They can't get treatment for mental illness because it would cut off their career. Consequently, while "Havana Syndrome" may be real, there are large confounding problems in sorting it out. I mean, look at how long it has taken to lock in on Gulf War Syndrome: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_War_syndrome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_War_syndrome And the evidence for that is way stronger and doesn't have all the cloak and dagger implications.
  - Nevermark 7mo ago
    The evidence that something wrong is beyond credible. You may be right, that one diagnosis doesn't have the evidence of another issue you point out. But that is diagnosis. That there is a problem is certain. It's a complex issue. But a decision has to be made, to either deal straightforwardly with a complex issue, or in a deceptive, avoidant, or secretive manner. This isn't a choice that removes fundamental complexity, but being direct about problems avoids a lot of manufactured complexity. If someone is suffering long term life changing mental symptoms, in what sense does the cause make it mental health vs. not mental health? Obviously, it is a mental health issue whether caused by physical or psychological malfunctions. There is no "winning" for sufferers, in any scenario. But there is better support, or less support. Generally competent people insisting they are dealing with something serious, should be taken seriously. -- You may have identified the non-medical systemic problem here: A strong case could be made that black and white "mental illness" disqualifications for any job are devastatingly out of step with reality and going to damage the careers of people it shouldn't. There should be some means of getting the all clear after any episode, given reasons to believe it has been resolved. Beyond careers and people suffering unnecessarily, this also critically motivates people responsible for security and safety to hide and bury real problems! How does that help institutions with safety and security concerns?
bryan0 7mo ago
While there have probably many people that have been affected by the secondary "mass psychosis" effect of havana syndrome, it seems unlikely that is the primary cause considering the device is now out in the wild: https://edition.cnn.com/2026/01/13/politics/havana-syndrome-device-pentagon-hsi https://edition.cnn.com/2026/01/13/politics/havana-syndrome-... https://www.cbsnews.com/news/us-military-tested-device-that-may-be-tied-to-havana-syndrome-60-minutes-transcript/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/us-military-tested-device-that-...
conception 7mo ago
The most obvious and large scale example of this I’ve seen is carpal tunnel syndrome in the 1990s and early 2000s. everybody had carpal tunnel syndrome and then just one day it all went away. not that the people who were suffering with it were faking anything. it’s just what was on everybody’s mind and then it wasn’t.
- bannable 7mo ago
  I'd think the decline of CTS is better explained by improvements in our material design: our interfaces with the physical world are much less hostile today than in '90 and cause us less harm. For example, consider the NES/N64 controllers versus a modern PS5 controller.
  - conception 7mo ago
    I dunno. Cheap keyboards are definitely worse today.
    - stubish 7mo ago
      Most people are also using keyboards less, spending more time waggling their mouse or having a break watching youtube. And people who are mostly employed to type, doing data entry or similar, have problems and physical therapists who understand the problems. Carpel tunnel and RSI also predates computers. Musicians still suffer this sort of injury, generally by forcing themselves to keep playing when it hurts. Poor computer ergonomics just made it popular.
- bsder 7mo ago
  > everybody had carpal tunnel syndrome and then just one day it all went away. It didn't. It just became a routine thing to be diagnosed. When I had wrist surgery for an accident, every single data entry person at the hospital (almost a dozen of them) knew the surgeon I was going to because they all had their wrists operated on because of ailments from the cheap-ass computer stuff they were using. You would think that the hospital and insurance provider would see the link and decide that maybe providing better ergonomic conditions would be useful, but ... no. Putting people in for surgery doesn't come off the budget while ergonomic workstations would. So, here we are. It also doesn't hurt that most tech workers are cognizant of the problem and now happen to be paid well enough that they can do something about it.
mpalmer 7mo ago
I read through the entire article and couldn't find the part where this phenomenon causes or otherwise explains intense pain and detectable traumatic brain injuries.

Nevermark 7mo ago

If that is so, why not acknowledge that the current working theory is that it is psychogenic, but that doesn’t make it any less real. The fact that psychogenic illness is not simply “weak” people, but a real phenomenon, strongly supports the fairness and necessity of offering treatment. The wikipedia article says when authorities publicly take the effects seriously it can induce more cases. But the example was of getting help from a witch doctor, which was a remarkably dysfunctional “validation” to add to an already complex problem. Another very dysfunctional “validation”: official denial, avoidance, obvious lack of work on solutions or mitigations, and all the trappings of a cover up! Being direct has so many benefits, vs indirect denial or bad faith “treatments”. It would be a reassuring response, to those in the same context without symptoms who are concerned about their own health. Direct responses, with care given, are also in a better position to find treatments for psychogenic symptoms, preventative practices that reduce vulnerability, or alter working theories of cause, as any other evidence emerges. Chronic anxiety and anxiety attacks are “psychosomatic” on an individual basis. But very real, often caused or impacted by working conditions, and important to diagnose and treat. Psychogenic illness should be the same. “Illness” is not a cause limited concept.

bsder 7mo ago
> Direct responses, with care given, are also in a better position to alter working theories as any other evidence emerges. The problem is that "mental illness" is a career limiting diagnosis. Security clearance personnel have the same problem as airplane pilots. They can't get treatment for mental illness because it would cut off their career. Consequently, while "Havana Syndrome" may be real, there are large confounding problems in sorting it out. I mean, look at how long it has taken to lock in on Gulf War Syndrome: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_War_syndrome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_War_syndrome And the evidence for that is way stronger and doesn't have all the cloak and dagger implications.
- Nevermark 7mo ago
  The evidence that something wrong is beyond credible. You may be right, that one diagnosis doesn't have the evidence of another issue you point out. But that is diagnosis. That there is a problem is certain. It's a complex issue. But a decision has to be made, to either deal straightforwardly with a complex issue, or in a deceptive, avoidant, or secretive manner. This isn't a choice that removes fundamental complexity, but being direct about problems avoids a lot of manufactured complexity. If someone is suffering long term life changing mental symptoms, in what sense does the cause make it mental health vs. not mental health? Obviously, it is a mental health issue whether caused by physical or psychological malfunctions. There is no "winning" for sufferers, in any scenario. But there is better support, or less support. Generally competent people insisting they are dealing with something serious, should be taken seriously. -- You may have identified the non-medical systemic problem here: A strong case could be made that black and white "mental illness" disqualifications for any job are devastatingly out of step with reality and going to damage the careers of people it shouldn't. There should be some means of getting the all clear after any episode, given reasons to believe it has been resolved. Beyond careers and people suffering unnecessarily, this also critically motivates people responsible for security and safety to hide and bury real problems! How does that help institutions with safety and security concerns?

bryan0 7mo ago

While there have probably many people that have been affected by the secondary "mass psychosis" effect of havana syndrome, it seems unlikely that is the primary cause considering the device is now out in the wild: https://edition.cnn.com/2026/01/13/politics/havana-syndrome-device-pentagon-hsi https://edition.cnn.com/2026/01/13/politics/havana-syndrome-... https://www.cbsnews.com/news/us-military-tested-device-that-may-be-tied-to-havana-syndrome-60-minutes-transcript/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/us-military-tested-device-that-...

conception 7mo ago

The most obvious and large scale example of this I’ve seen is carpal tunnel syndrome in the 1990s and early 2000s. everybody had carpal tunnel syndrome and then just one day it all went away. not that the people who were suffering with it were faking anything. it’s just what was on everybody’s mind and then it wasn’t.

bannable 7mo ago
I'd think the decline of CTS is better explained by improvements in our material design: our interfaces with the physical world are much less hostile today than in '90 and cause us less harm. For example, consider the NES/N64 controllers versus a modern PS5 controller.
- conception 7mo ago
  I dunno. Cheap keyboards are definitely worse today.
  - stubish 7mo ago
    Most people are also using keyboards less, spending more time waggling their mouse or having a break watching youtube. And people who are mostly employed to type, doing data entry or similar, have problems and physical therapists who understand the problems. Carpel tunnel and RSI also predates computers. Musicians still suffer this sort of injury, generally by forcing themselves to keep playing when it hurts. Poor computer ergonomics just made it popular.
bsder 7mo ago
> everybody had carpal tunnel syndrome and then just one day it all went away. It didn't. It just became a routine thing to be diagnosed. When I had wrist surgery for an accident, every single data entry person at the hospital (almost a dozen of them) knew the surgeon I was going to because they all had their wrists operated on because of ailments from the cheap-ass computer stuff they were using. You would think that the hospital and insurance provider would see the link and decide that maybe providing better ergonomic conditions would be useful, but ... no. Putting people in for surgery doesn't come off the budget while ergonomic workstations would. So, here we are. It also doesn't hurt that most tech workers are cognizant of the problem and now happen to be paid well enough that they can do something about it.

mpalmer 7mo ago

I read through the entire article and couldn't find the part where this phenomenon causes or otherwise explains intense pain and detectable traumatic brain injuries.