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There is a big difference between games now and games then. E.g. an SNES game was made to be fun, but not to be intentionally addictive, you would never buy a n

There is a big difference between games now and games then. E.g. an SNES game was made to be fun, but not to be intentionally addictive, you would never buy a new game if it was. Many online games are designed to be as addictive as crack to extract as much revenue as possible. Our kid is in the typical video gaming age, almost every kid of her age is stuck in Roblox and some in Fortnite. Setting limits helps, but more broadly, games that require a monthly subscriptions or buying in-game currency should just be outright forbidden for anyone under 16 or 18. Yes, kids need to learn to recognize and suppress abusive patterns, but these addictive games, together with social media, and Youtube Shorts is destroying their mental health and normal, healthy exploration of the world. I think parents are also failing in general. It's insane how many use tablets as a pacifier, some give 2 year-olds an iPad to play with. Or setting bad examples like using phones themselves at the dinner table.

grvdrm 8mo ago
I’m a parent. Girls 7 and 4. I think you’re right about a number of parent habits. Hard to impose a device limit on a kid if that kid watches you use your device constantly. I’m not some hero here - constantly reminding myself to be aware. Now, I think imposing limits in the open world is a specific challenge. To your point, you’ll see kids at restaurants on iPads. Well, now your kid wants iPad. You don’t give it? They start a shitstorm. I don’t think an outright device ban is so critical. But limits are important, and even more important is sticking to what you said you would do as a parent. With mine, they sense that moment of giving and almost instinctually rush to exploit. That said, flexibility is important too - knowing when you use it. As for game, I set a rule on an iPad. No games with ads. Those seem to be the worst of them, and there are tons.
- alphawhisky 8mo ago
  Kudos dad/mom, that's a hard job. I feel like getting them exposed to technology and the dopamine generator that is games as a younger kid can help you teach more lessons around managing habits that can become maladaptive. Our world is increasingly engineered for addiction, and having conversations about self control starting young can help develop maturity. I know plenty of friends (2001 baby) that did not have access to internet/games until the 8th grade when the school provided laptops, and they STRUGGLED to handle the intensity of that distraction because they were never exposed and weren't taught healthy habits around technology. Exposure therapy is a great way to manage that.
  - grvdrm 8mo ago
    Yes - I think the general approach of collaborating on things with your kids is the way to go, though not always the path I choose (I'm a normal dad with my own pluses and minuses). But if you only ever say no, or the reverse, and never explain or attempt to explain, you're missing some opportunities to chat with your kids. They of course need to sort some things on their own too.
- microtonal 8mo ago
  Now, I think imposing limits in the open world is a specific challenge. To your point, you’ll see kids at restaurants on iPads. Well, now your kid wants iPad. You don’t give it? They start a shitstorm. Our daughter certainly did not have access to an iPad at that age. Maybe she could use her mom's iPad (I don't have one) once every few weeks for a brief period. The shitstorm only happens a few times, they get over it pretty quickly. It got harder once she was 9 or 10, because most kids have access to a phone after school. Once she got a phone and a tablet, there have been very clear time restrictions. A lot of kids hang around on devices all afternoon, the rule here on weekdays is that she can have some screen time before dinner. (I remember that also being TV time for us when we were kids.) She was allowed to play on the Nintendo Switch when she was 7 or 8, but only fun, non-addictive games (the typical Nintendo titles) and no multi-player. Hard to impose a device limit on a kid if that kid watches you use your device constantly. I’m not some hero here - constantly reminding myself to be aware. Yeah, that is hard. I think banning phones from shared moments like (the time around) breakfast, dinner, or when having a cup of tea together is an easy and impactful move. Those are moments when they are also not playing, so it's a good time to be together without distractions.
  - grvdrm 8mo ago
    My kiddos don't have that access either. They do have their own iPads but not with unlimited access. Most common usage: flights, long drives. Otherwise, no weekday or weekend usage for the most part. As for the shitstorm, yes, they get used to your rule and calm down. But that was my point: lots of folks overreact and create the vicious cycle. Your kid complains, you give the phone, they shut up. Repeat. Repeat again. Now your kid expects the phone. And now you believe they will only ever stay calm if you give them the phone. Breaking the cycle requires you to stick to your statements, but also, in public, to not give a shit about embarrassment. When you worry if you're disturbing everyone else or you feel inadequate as a part that can't calm a kid, you might give in. You can't! PS: multiplayer games in my statement -> multi-player with me. Not internet.
johnisgood 8mo ago
Yeah, the games my SWE friends and I have played were completely free.
rincebrain 8mo ago
I think the reason for that is less that they didn't want to do it and more that they hadn't polished the mechanisms for it. I've said before that the analogue for these sorts of games is arcade games - where you had to put in currency per unit time of enjoyment, and they had to try to guesstimate play time versus amount they're willing to pay for it and then would go in person to "test" arcades with early versions of games to see if they were wrong. The internet reduced that feedback cycle to minutes, so we speedran evolution on it. TBH, I don't see monthly fee games as even in the same category of concern - at least, not in a vacuum. Games with microtransactions, yes, absolutely, but that's true whether it's nominally a pay-once game or not, I think. I said in another comment, I don't hate the idea of allowing microtransaction/gambling-style mechanics in games as long as they can't involve real currency on either side, if children are the market - not because I think it's great for kids, but because I think you're not going to manage to ban everything that's the same addictive "shape" as those, and allowing people to be exposed to that in a venue they care about, but with foam sword padding so you can't blow actual money on it, is probably a reasonable risk/reward balance. (You might reasonably argue that this is just going to lead to kids being primed for addictive behaviors as adults, but the only thing that's going to help that is being mindful about it, e.g. education, and nothing short of people the kids respect reinforcing that is going to change that whether the games allow this sort of soft pain or not...and being exposed to something like Vegas naive or primed is going to, I think, have the same outcomes either way if you're not mindful about it.)

grvdrm 8mo ago

I’m a parent. Girls 7 and 4. I think you’re right about a number of parent habits. Hard to impose a device limit on a kid if that kid watches you use your device constantly. I’m not some hero here - constantly reminding myself to be aware. Now, I think imposing limits in the open world is a specific challenge. To your point, you’ll see kids at restaurants on iPads. Well, now your kid wants iPad. You don’t give it? They start a shitstorm. I don’t think an outright device ban is so critical. But limits are important, and even more important is sticking to what you said you would do as a parent. With mine, they sense that moment of giving and almost instinctually rush to exploit. That said, flexibility is important too - knowing when you use it. As for game, I set a rule on an iPad. No games with ads. Those seem to be the worst of them, and there are tons.

alphawhisky 8mo ago
Kudos dad/mom, that's a hard job. I feel like getting them exposed to technology and the dopamine generator that is games as a younger kid can help you teach more lessons around managing habits that can become maladaptive. Our world is increasingly engineered for addiction, and having conversations about self control starting young can help develop maturity. I know plenty of friends (2001 baby) that did not have access to internet/games until the 8th grade when the school provided laptops, and they STRUGGLED to handle the intensity of that distraction because they were never exposed and weren't taught healthy habits around technology. Exposure therapy is a great way to manage that.
- grvdrm 8mo ago
  Yes - I think the general approach of collaborating on things with your kids is the way to go, though not always the path I choose (I'm a normal dad with my own pluses and minuses). But if you only ever say no, or the reverse, and never explain or attempt to explain, you're missing some opportunities to chat with your kids. They of course need to sort some things on their own too.
microtonal 8mo ago
Now, I think imposing limits in the open world is a specific challenge. To your point, you’ll see kids at restaurants on iPads. Well, now your kid wants iPad. You don’t give it? They start a shitstorm. Our daughter certainly did not have access to an iPad at that age. Maybe she could use her mom's iPad (I don't have one) once every few weeks for a brief period. The shitstorm only happens a few times, they get over it pretty quickly. It got harder once she was 9 or 10, because most kids have access to a phone after school. Once she got a phone and a tablet, there have been very clear time restrictions. A lot of kids hang around on devices all afternoon, the rule here on weekdays is that she can have some screen time before dinner. (I remember that also being TV time for us when we were kids.) She was allowed to play on the Nintendo Switch when she was 7 or 8, but only fun, non-addictive games (the typical Nintendo titles) and no multi-player. Hard to impose a device limit on a kid if that kid watches you use your device constantly. I’m not some hero here - constantly reminding myself to be aware. Yeah, that is hard. I think banning phones from shared moments like (the time around) breakfast, dinner, or when having a cup of tea together is an easy and impactful move. Those are moments when they are also not playing, so it's a good time to be together without distractions.
- grvdrm 8mo ago
  My kiddos don't have that access either. They do have their own iPads but not with unlimited access. Most common usage: flights, long drives. Otherwise, no weekday or weekend usage for the most part. As for the shitstorm, yes, they get used to your rule and calm down. But that was my point: lots of folks overreact and create the vicious cycle. Your kid complains, you give the phone, they shut up. Repeat. Repeat again. Now your kid expects the phone. And now you believe they will only ever stay calm if you give them the phone. Breaking the cycle requires you to stick to your statements, but also, in public, to not give a shit about embarrassment. When you worry if you're disturbing everyone else or you feel inadequate as a part that can't calm a kid, you might give in. You can't! PS: multiplayer games in my statement -> multi-player with me. Not internet.

johnisgood 8mo ago

Yeah, the games my SWE friends and I have played were completely free.

rincebrain 8mo ago

I think the reason for that is less that they didn't want to do it and more that they hadn't polished the mechanisms for it. I've said before that the analogue for these sorts of games is arcade games - where you had to put in currency per unit time of enjoyment, and they had to try to guesstimate play time versus amount they're willing to pay for it and then would go in person to "test" arcades with early versions of games to see if they were wrong. The internet reduced that feedback cycle to minutes, so we speedran evolution on it. TBH, I don't see monthly fee games as even in the same category of concern - at least, not in a vacuum. Games with microtransactions, yes, absolutely, but that's true whether it's nominally a pay-once game or not, I think. I said in another comment, I don't hate the idea of allowing microtransaction/gambling-style mechanics in games as long as they can't involve real currency on either side, if children are the market - not because I think it's great for kids, but because I think you're not going to manage to ban everything that's the same addictive "shape" as those, and allowing people to be exposed to that in a venue they care about, but with foam sword padding so you can't blow actual money on it, is probably a reasonable risk/reward balance. (You might reasonably argue that this is just going to lead to kids being primed for addictive behaviors as adults, but the only thing that's going to help that is being mindful about it, e.g. education, and nothing short of people the kids respect reinforcing that is going to change that whether the games allow this sort of soft pain or not...and being exposed to something like Vegas naive or primed is going to, I think, have the same outcomes either way if you're not mindful about it.)