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I don't agree. Mainly because I don't agree with the premise that ideas are worthless - something that is echoed around all the time. Ideas being worthless is

I don't agree. Mainly because I don't agree with the premise that ideas are worthless - something that is echoed around all the time. Ideas being worthless is the lazy and easy way to explain to someone why they should get feedback on their idea. The reality is ideas do have value. We've got a great idea for a new product, and we're not telling anyone about it. That's because our idea has value and we don't want anyone else to make it before we do. Come back to us in a year or two and I'll happily explain our reasoning behind this. If an idea is worthless it means it literally has zero value. Value doesn't have to be a positive value, it can be negative as well. Given 2 ideas, which of these would you rather develop: - A mobile phone for elephants - A service which sends you an SMS when your website goes offline If both ideas have zero value, it doesn't matter which one you pick when you set out. The reality is if you are going to set out and make mobile phones for elephants you are going to burn through your cash a lot quicker, and have a much lower chance of ever making money and succeeding (if you measure success through sustainability and profitability). These two ideas are not equally worthless, therefore one has more value than another. Two things with differing value cannot both be worthless unless they both have negative expected value. Not all ideas have negative expected value and you easily build a case arguing that the SMS service idea has positive expected value. "All ideas are worthless" is not true as all ideas have varying levels of negative/positive expected value. Sharing your idea is usually the right thing to do, but it does come with some potential downsides. Just because it's usually the right thing to do doesn't mean it's always the right thing to do. Someone might steal/copy your idea. It's probably a lower chance than most people estimate especially in the very early stages of startups.

nhebb 14y ago
> Mainly because I don't agree with the premise that ideas are worthless - something that is echoed around all the time. I don't know the genesis of this, but the first time I heard it was in an interview with John Doerr a number of years ago. And from a VC's perspective, that makes sense. They don't want to invest in an idea; they want to invest in something that has traction. From a startup's perspective, though, ideas definitely have value. Startups just need to be cognizant of the tightrope between guarding the idea and getting early feedback and buzz. Edit: I should add that I've had to sign NDA's that I thought were ridiculous, so the blog post isn't without merit. I just get tired of the ideas are worthless meme because I think it's over-applied.
- rhizome 14y ago
  It's always business people who say that ideas don't matter, without any indication of the conflict of interest involved in that statement. It shifts the balance of power if the opportunity can be transposed to a separate business, or to separate people. A businessperson knowing an idea commodifies the technology, which doesn't happen when they're tied to an implementation or black box.
sh_vipin 14y ago
I would say, your point is right too that "better be safe than sorry". On the other hand I agree with author too that - Today in the world, almost everybody has some idea. It's the execution and in fact smart execution that matters. That doesn't mean that we start shouting our ideas but the thing is smart execution and time to market have so fearsome competition today that "ideas" in itself have lesser value these days. That is why we started putting our ideas (for free : ) on - http://syncfin.com http://syncfin.com
mertd 14y ago
If the value of the idea is trivially obvious, then so is the idea itself. There are ideas and there are ideas. If it is the paradigm shifting kind, it is probably controversial, non intuitive and may not even make sense within the context of the status quo (e.g., Information Theory, Earth is round, Quantum Mechanics). You really have to shove them down the people's throats to gain any support. You don't worry about these getting stolen, because, most likely, you are getting ridiculed for stating them anyway. Then there is the iterative kind of ideas (e.g., service which sends you an SMS when your website goes offline). Marginally innovative, just the organic next step from where we are. They are worth something, but probably much less than what people think. Surely you can make a lot of money with these kind of ideas, but the chances are that many other people have come up with this "idea" as well, and it will be up to luck (and execution) to determine who makes the bank.
enraged_camel 14y ago
Here's the thing: if your idea is not a controversial and potentially groundbreaking one, then you are not the only person who has it. Chances are, someone else has already thought of it and is working on it. The example you gave with the SMS service is like this: it's a decent idea, but not exactly difficult to come up with. On the other hand, if your idea is controversial and potentially groundbreaking, then it will sound so insane that people will think you are crazy. So from the beginning you are firmly insured against people stealing it. This was basically Airbnb. They started out renting inflatable beds to conference attendees. Almost nobody thought they would succeed because the idea on its face sounds crazy. But the Airbnb guys kept going and their idea evolved and today they have a successful business. That the other thing: ideas by themselves are not worth anything because there isn't a single idea out there that survives the execution phase unscathed. The vast majority of the time what happens is that people start with one idea, realize how shitty it is, and end up executing on something else to become successful. But that's just hindsight: if you had asked their pre-execution self what their idea was worth, they would probably throw out big numbers because they have not yet seen how worthless it is.
- pcrh 14y ago
  To quote: "Don't worry about people stealing an idea; if it's original, you'll have to shove it down their throats." - Howard Aiken. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howard_H._Aiken http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howard_H._Aiken
abecedarius 14y ago
While elephants already chat while miles apart using subsonics, they're smart and I'll bet neat things would happen if you gave a bunch of them mobile phones that they could work. I'll chip in if anyone does a kickstarter. (I'm not really arguing, ideas have value, I'm just rather tickled by that idea.)
npsimons 14y ago
Mainly because I don't agree with the premise that ideas are worthless - something that is echoed around all the time. Really? If there's anything the current IP litigious climate signals to me, it's that people are far overvaluing ideas. Sure, ideas aren't worthless - but they are useless without hard work and luck (what some people like to call "execution"). Ideas are a dime a dozen; good ideas are probably worth about $1.50. But ideas + execution? Now there's the real value proposition.
wpietri 14y ago
I am not buying your idea valuation logic. "Worthless" means lacking significant positive value. If business ideas had significant value, you'd see people buying them. They don't, though. They might by a proven opportunity, or they might buy knowledge. But ideas on their own? As unsaleable as used chewing gum. I really don't believe people should worry about business ideas being stolen. If your idea is so simple that J. Random Hustler can steal it from a description, a) the idea's probably too simple to matter, and b) many other people will have thought of it. To successfully execute on a startup idea, you need solid knowledge of the domain, and the ability to keep having great ideas. There is a ton of iteration before product/market fit, and I think copycats just don't have the depth to successfully iterate there.
- rhizome 14y ago
  So by the same token on the business side, do marketing strategies matter?
- graysnorf 14y ago
  It is true that for people to buy ideas they must have value. But the transaction must also be feasible. The trouble with ideas is that I can't easily prove to you the idea is valuable without having already given it to you, thus destroying your incentive to complete your end of the transaction. It may be that there isn't a market in ideas because they have no value. But it may also be that there isn't a market in ideas because it's too difficult to facilitate the transaction.
  - wpietri 14y ago
    I suspect that's not particularly difficult to solve. Escrow is one solution. Profit sharing is another. Independent valuators would be a third. I imagine any energetic business lawyer could come up with a number of other approaches. The problem is that nobody wants to buy raw ideas. Any decent entrepreneur has ideas coming out the wazoo. People who aren't decent entrepreneurs could probably use ideas, but they'll very rarely recognize that they need them. There is a great market for proven ideas. That's why a major route for startup exit is acquisition. Once you've achieved product-market fit, plenty of people can see the value of your idea.
randomdata 14y ago
I think we can put it another way: An idea is worthless until someone is willing to pay for it. Worth is in the eye of the beholder. To me, both of your ideas really are worthless (no offence). I wouldn't be inclined to pay for either of them, and do not really have an interest in working on either. That said, the market is vast. If you can find someone to pay you for the idea then I will agree that the idea may have value. The problem at this stage is that without any execution on those ideas, both are equally likely to fail. For all we know the market for pachyderm telephones is large and nobody wants SMS downtime messages. There has been no market research done at the point of idea conception. Doing so leads into execution, where the value is generally thought to be created. The other problem is that everyone with skills to build such ideas already have a million of their own. Most wouldn't even consider buying an idea from someone else. If the chances of failure is high, at least you are working on your own failure and not someone else's. That is why ideas are generally considered worthless.
evan_ 14y ago
I read this article awhile ago and it really fits what you're saying pretty well: http://sivers.org/multiply http://sivers.org/multiply The idea is that an idea does has a worth, but it's small, and it behaves as a multiplier to the execution, which is orders of magnitude larger. For example a good idea is a "3" but a good execution is worth $1,000,000. A good idea with a mediocre execution is worth a whole lot less than a mediocre idea with a good execution.
- rhizome 14y ago
  Which of those two scenarios covers icanhascheezburger.com?
  - evan_ 14y ago
    Timeliness and marketing, which you can probably file under execution.
dbecker 14y ago
You're arguing against a straw man that isn't related to the article. The article DOES NOT claim ideas have no value. It claims it is unlikely anyone will steal your idea. I have a large porch swing on my front porch. It obviously isn't worthless, but it is still unlikely to be stolen.
lanstein 14y ago
PagerDuty! (I work there.)
habitue 14y ago
Think of the idea as a multiplier for how well you execute on ideas. if you idea sucks, it's a zero, and no matter how well you execute, you arent going to end up with a successful product. If you have a great idea, let's say it's a 1, your execution is poor, you don't fully realize the potential of the idea. The problem is that you don't know whether the idea is good until you execute it (since the end result is a zero until you do something). And while you can weed out some really bad ideas by executing them a little bit, it's a lot of investment to determine if an idea is actually no good or you just haven't worked on it hard enough. There are so many ideas out there, it would just be too much work for people to start working on every idea they've heard to see if there is something to it. Plus, people are usually biased in that they have their own ideas they are interested in executing on, and so yours aren't as attractive since they haven't thought about them as much as you have
fragsworth 14y ago
Yes. Every idea has some kind of value to it, but it's hard to estimate this value. And it should be obvious that not every idea has the same value. Most ideas are common-sense things that many people thought of, but nobody invested anything in. But it should also be clear that some ideas have extremely high value. If you plot monetary values to number of ideas with that value, it'd follow something like an inverse square law. There aren't many ideas with high value, but they exist. Out of hundreds of thousands of ideas that people think are brilliant, there will be a few that actually have value. They have to be sufficiently advanced (technologically) that nobody would have thought of it, solve a problem that almost nobody realizes is a problem, and have very clear, easy paths of implementation to making lots of money.
dorkrawk 14y ago
The real problem is that it's REALLY hard to tell which is the better idea when things are just at an idea stage. I bet that when they were first proposed (before building anything or seeing adoption numbers) WebTV seemed like a MUCH better idea than Twitter. (not that they're comparable services just that if I told you that I wanted to let people use the internet from their living room, that would sound more exciting and useful than creating a service where people write 140 character blog posts). Quality of idea just might not be a valuable metric.

nhebb 14y ago

> Mainly because I don't agree with the premise that ideas are worthless - something that is echoed around all the time. I don't know the genesis of this, but the first time I heard it was in an interview with John Doerr a number of years ago. And from a VC's perspective, that makes sense. They don't want to invest in an idea; they want to invest in something that has traction. From a startup's perspective, though, ideas definitely have value. Startups just need to be cognizant of the tightrope between guarding the idea and getting early feedback and buzz. Edit: I should add that I've had to sign NDA's that I thought were ridiculous, so the blog post isn't without merit. I just get tired of the ideas are worthless meme because I think it's over-applied.

rhizome 14y ago
It's always business people who say that ideas don't matter, without any indication of the conflict of interest involved in that statement. It shifts the balance of power if the opportunity can be transposed to a separate business, or to separate people. A businessperson knowing an idea commodifies the technology, which doesn't happen when they're tied to an implementation or black box.

sh_vipin 14y ago

I would say, your point is right too that "better be safe than sorry". On the other hand I agree with author too that - Today in the world, almost everybody has some idea. It's the execution and in fact smart execution that matters. That doesn't mean that we start shouting our ideas but the thing is smart execution and time to market have so fearsome competition today that "ideas" in itself have lesser value these days. That is why we started putting our ideas (for free : ) on - http://syncfin.com http://syncfin.com

mertd 14y ago

If the value of the idea is trivially obvious, then so is the idea itself. There are ideas and there are ideas. If it is the paradigm shifting kind, it is probably controversial, non intuitive and may not even make sense within the context of the status quo (e.g., Information Theory, Earth is round, Quantum Mechanics). You really have to shove them down the people's throats to gain any support. You don't worry about these getting stolen, because, most likely, you are getting ridiculed for stating them anyway. Then there is the iterative kind of ideas (e.g., service which sends you an SMS when your website goes offline). Marginally innovative, just the organic next step from where we are. They are worth something, but probably much less than what people think. Surely you can make a lot of money with these kind of ideas, but the chances are that many other people have come up with this "idea" as well, and it will be up to luck (and execution) to determine who makes the bank.

enraged_camel 14y ago

Here's the thing: if your idea is not a controversial and potentially groundbreaking one, then you are not the only person who has it. Chances are, someone else has already thought of it and is working on it. The example you gave with the SMS service is like this: it's a decent idea, but not exactly difficult to come up with. On the other hand, if your idea is controversial and potentially groundbreaking, then it will sound so insane that people will think you are crazy. So from the beginning you are firmly insured against people stealing it. This was basically Airbnb. They started out renting inflatable beds to conference attendees. Almost nobody thought they would succeed because the idea on its face sounds crazy. But the Airbnb guys kept going and their idea evolved and today they have a successful business. That the other thing: ideas by themselves are not worth anything because there isn't a single idea out there that survives the execution phase unscathed. The vast majority of the time what happens is that people start with one idea, realize how shitty it is, and end up executing on something else to become successful. But that's just hindsight: if you had asked their pre-execution self what their idea was worth, they would probably throw out big numbers because they have not yet seen how worthless it is.

pcrh 14y ago
To quote: "Don't worry about people stealing an idea; if it's original, you'll have to shove it down their throats." - Howard Aiken. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howard_H._Aiken http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howard_H._Aiken

abecedarius 14y ago

While elephants already chat while miles apart using subsonics, they're smart and I'll bet neat things would happen if you gave a bunch of them mobile phones that they could work. I'll chip in if anyone does a kickstarter. (I'm not really arguing, ideas have value, I'm just rather tickled by that idea.)

npsimons 14y ago

Mainly because I don't agree with the premise that ideas are worthless - something that is echoed around all the time. Really? If there's anything the current IP litigious climate signals to me, it's that people are far overvaluing ideas. Sure, ideas aren't worthless - but they are useless without hard work and luck (what some people like to call "execution"). Ideas are a dime a dozen; good ideas are probably worth about $1.50. But ideas + execution? Now there's the real value proposition.

wpietri 14y ago

I am not buying your idea valuation logic. "Worthless" means lacking significant positive value. If business ideas had significant value, you'd see people buying them. They don't, though. They might by a proven opportunity, or they might buy knowledge. But ideas on their own? As unsaleable as used chewing gum. I really don't believe people should worry about business ideas being stolen. If your idea is so simple that J. Random Hustler can steal it from a description, a) the idea's probably too simple to matter, and b) many other people will have thought of it. To successfully execute on a startup idea, you need solid knowledge of the domain, and the ability to keep having great ideas. There is a ton of iteration before product/market fit, and I think copycats just don't have the depth to successfully iterate there.

rhizome 14y ago
So by the same token on the business side, do marketing strategies matter?
graysnorf 14y ago
It is true that for people to buy ideas they must have value. But the transaction must also be feasible. The trouble with ideas is that I can't easily prove to you the idea is valuable without having already given it to you, thus destroying your incentive to complete your end of the transaction. It may be that there isn't a market in ideas because they have no value. But it may also be that there isn't a market in ideas because it's too difficult to facilitate the transaction.
- wpietri 14y ago
  I suspect that's not particularly difficult to solve. Escrow is one solution. Profit sharing is another. Independent valuators would be a third. I imagine any energetic business lawyer could come up with a number of other approaches. The problem is that nobody wants to buy raw ideas. Any decent entrepreneur has ideas coming out the wazoo. People who aren't decent entrepreneurs could probably use ideas, but they'll very rarely recognize that they need them. There is a great market for proven ideas. That's why a major route for startup exit is acquisition. Once you've achieved product-market fit, plenty of people can see the value of your idea.

randomdata 14y ago

I think we can put it another way: An idea is worthless until someone is willing to pay for it. Worth is in the eye of the beholder. To me, both of your ideas really are worthless (no offence). I wouldn't be inclined to pay for either of them, and do not really have an interest in working on either. That said, the market is vast. If you can find someone to pay you for the idea then I will agree that the idea may have value. The problem at this stage is that without any execution on those ideas, both are equally likely to fail. For all we know the market for pachyderm telephones is large and nobody wants SMS downtime messages. There has been no market research done at the point of idea conception. Doing so leads into execution, where the value is generally thought to be created. The other problem is that everyone with skills to build such ideas already have a million of their own. Most wouldn't even consider buying an idea from someone else. If the chances of failure is high, at least you are working on your own failure and not someone else's. That is why ideas are generally considered worthless.

evan_ 14y ago

I read this article awhile ago and it really fits what you're saying pretty well: http://sivers.org/multiply http://sivers.org/multiply The idea is that an idea does has a worth, but it's small, and it behaves as a multiplier to the execution, which is orders of magnitude larger. For example a good idea is a "3" but a good execution is worth $1,000,000. A good idea with a mediocre execution is worth a whole lot less than a mediocre idea with a good execution.

rhizome 14y ago
Which of those two scenarios covers icanhascheezburger.com?
- evan_ 14y ago
  Timeliness and marketing, which you can probably file under execution.

dbecker 14y ago

You're arguing against a straw man that isn't related to the article. The article DOES NOT claim ideas have no value. It claims it is unlikely anyone will steal your idea. I have a large porch swing on my front porch. It obviously isn't worthless, but it is still unlikely to be stolen.

lanstein 14y ago

PagerDuty! (I work there.)

habitue 14y ago

Think of the idea as a multiplier for how well you execute on ideas. if you idea sucks, it's a zero, and no matter how well you execute, you arent going to end up with a successful product. If you have a great idea, let's say it's a 1, your execution is poor, you don't fully realize the potential of the idea. The problem is that you don't know whether the idea is good until you execute it (since the end result is a zero until you do something). And while you can weed out some really bad ideas by executing them a little bit, it's a lot of investment to determine if an idea is actually no good or you just haven't worked on it hard enough. There are so many ideas out there, it would just be too much work for people to start working on every idea they've heard to see if there is something to it. Plus, people are usually biased in that they have their own ideas they are interested in executing on, and so yours aren't as attractive since they haven't thought about them as much as you have

fragsworth 14y ago

Yes. Every idea has some kind of value to it, but it's hard to estimate this value. And it should be obvious that not every idea has the same value. Most ideas are common-sense things that many people thought of, but nobody invested anything in. But it should also be clear that some ideas have extremely high value. If you plot monetary values to number of ideas with that value, it'd follow something like an inverse square law. There aren't many ideas with high value, but they exist. Out of hundreds of thousands of ideas that people think are brilliant, there will be a few that actually have value. They have to be sufficiently advanced (technologically) that nobody would have thought of it, solve a problem that almost nobody realizes is a problem, and have very clear, easy paths of implementation to making lots of money.

dorkrawk 14y ago

The real problem is that it's REALLY hard to tell which is the better idea when things are just at an idea stage. I bet that when they were first proposed (before building anything or seeing adoption numbers) WebTV seemed like a MUCH better idea than Twitter. (not that they're comparable services just that if I told you that I wanted to let people use the internet from their living room, that would sound more exciting and useful than creating a service where people write 140 character blog posts). Quality of idea just might not be a valuable metric.