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To play devil’s advocate since I’ve been a little energetic in this thread already, I’ll go ahead and agree that they’re probably correct about single-income, t

To play devil’s advocate since I’ve been a little energetic in this thread already, I’ll go ahead and agree that they’re probably correct about single-income, two-parent homes having better outcomes for children. I disagree that it should always be the woman staying home (or always the same parent through the children’s adolescence, or that both parents should have different genders, or) but I think the premise is sound. They’re also objectively correct that women should, on average, be having children earlier (but wrong when they want it to be before the age of majority, or when they want to lower that age, or permit child marriage, or want to deny that couple sound sex education and medical care.)

jarjoura 7mo ago
Who is "they" here? Having a single-income parent in a two-parent home was the norm for most of US history. It's also still the norm outside of the US. Where is the evidence that children are worse off because both parents work? Kids (5+) barely spend any time at home during a typical work day, so I'm not sure what "they" are correct about. How is it objectively correct that women should, on average, have children earlier? Sorry, but this is purely a subjective statement and women are free to agree or disagree with that statement. Having been raised by my grandparents, I personally believe the only secret for success is to show up for children, and love them and provide them a stable environment to thrive in. Everything else is just window dressing.
- watwut 7mo ago
  > Having a single-income parent in a two-parent home was the norm for most of US history. You dont really have income and non income on a household farm. You have patriarch making decisions and everybody else working. This included slave owning farms where she had managing/organizing responsibilities. Also, women in lower classes needed income and did worked for it. They did not had professional occupations and they were responsible for children, so it was things that fit into those boundaries - low income non professional work. But it was not really done for funsies. Then again, kids as small as 5 were left to handle by themselves and older kids were supposed to contribute. It is really incomparable to being stay at home parent now, isolated and literally having nothing useful to do except existing and playing.
- TimorousBestie 7mo ago
  > Who is "they" here? Sorry, I thought it was clear from the context that these are widely-held, American right-wing opinions that I happen to agree with. > How is it objectively correct that women should, on average, have children earlier? There are a few specific birth defects that are more common in younger mothers but most become much more common as the mother ages, and the overall risk of complication & death increases with maternal age. > Having been raised by my grandparents, I personally believe the only secret for success is to show up for children, and love them and provide them a stable environment to thrive in. Everything else is just window dressing. That’s a great sentiment but of little practical use in deciding policy.
  - jarjoura 7mo ago
    Ah, sorry, I guess I'm not sure what it is you're actually debating needs to be fixed. Are children being born today with more birth defects and we (society) now want to concern ourselves with the issue that if parents want to have children, they need to plan for it and start earlier? Is that what a supposed objective policy would try to address? Men also have a clock and birth defects are known to go up the older they are. So this can't be limited to women regardless of policy decisions. I'm also not sure there could be any actual conversative government policy that could fix what is ultimately a financial incentives problem. Lots of parents would start earlier if they were able to have things like home ownership and space to raise kids in, and education systems that don't skew towards needing upper middle class levels of access to. Any potential new idea with any realistic long term fix would end up looking quite progressive and in our current hostile environment become a no-go for any conservative political appointee.
mastermage 7mo ago
Just to also play the devils advocate, why SHOULD women be having children earlier. Its very much a very personal choice in their own freedom. I don't think this should be a political take at all. In this decision there is nothing any Government should have a say in.
- TimorousBestie 7mo ago
  > Just to also play the devils advocate, why SHOULD women be having children earlier. Lower prevalence of complications, lower risk of death, lower risk of birth defects. > Its very much a very personal choice in their own freedom. We don’t disagree. > I don't think this should be a political take at all. In this decision there is nothing any Government should have a say in. Unfortunately, Americans don’t live in that world. The government makes decisions that impact the health of pregnant mothers and children all the time.
- hattmall 7mo ago
  To have a longer life with their children... It's not something government should regulate but it is something that government policy should incentivize.
  - superxpro12 7mo ago
    Children are only children for about 10 years.... then they turn into teenagers and adults. this is nonsense.
  - YCpedohaven 7mo ago
    > It's not something government should regulate but it is something that government policy should incentivize. Every time this comes up, there are numerous instances reported of welfare states in Europe, Asia, etc. trying this and it not working. The west, and especially the US is falling out of love with republicans and liberal democracy as they learn that some problems need to solved with an iron fist.
    - mindslight 7mo ago

jarjoura 7mo ago

Who is "they" here? Having a single-income parent in a two-parent home was the norm for most of US history. It's also still the norm outside of the US. Where is the evidence that children are worse off because both parents work? Kids (5+) barely spend any time at home during a typical work day, so I'm not sure what "they" are correct about. How is it objectively correct that women should, on average, have children earlier? Sorry, but this is purely a subjective statement and women are free to agree or disagree with that statement. Having been raised by my grandparents, I personally believe the only secret for success is to show up for children, and love them and provide them a stable environment to thrive in. Everything else is just window dressing.

watwut 7mo ago
> Having a single-income parent in a two-parent home was the norm for most of US history. You dont really have income and non income on a household farm. You have patriarch making decisions and everybody else working. This included slave owning farms where she had managing/organizing responsibilities. Also, women in lower classes needed income and did worked for it. They did not had professional occupations and they were responsible for children, so it was things that fit into those boundaries - low income non professional work. But it was not really done for funsies. Then again, kids as small as 5 were left to handle by themselves and older kids were supposed to contribute. It is really incomparable to being stay at home parent now, isolated and literally having nothing useful to do except existing and playing.
TimorousBestie 7mo ago
> Who is "they" here? Sorry, I thought it was clear from the context that these are widely-held, American right-wing opinions that I happen to agree with. > How is it objectively correct that women should, on average, have children earlier? There are a few specific birth defects that are more common in younger mothers but most become much more common as the mother ages, and the overall risk of complication & death increases with maternal age. > Having been raised by my grandparents, I personally believe the only secret for success is to show up for children, and love them and provide them a stable environment to thrive in. Everything else is just window dressing. That’s a great sentiment but of little practical use in deciding policy.
- jarjoura 7mo ago
  Ah, sorry, I guess I'm not sure what it is you're actually debating needs to be fixed. Are children being born today with more birth defects and we (society) now want to concern ourselves with the issue that if parents want to have children, they need to plan for it and start earlier? Is that what a supposed objective policy would try to address? Men also have a clock and birth defects are known to go up the older they are. So this can't be limited to women regardless of policy decisions. I'm also not sure there could be any actual conversative government policy that could fix what is ultimately a financial incentives problem. Lots of parents would start earlier if they were able to have things like home ownership and space to raise kids in, and education systems that don't skew towards needing upper middle class levels of access to. Any potential new idea with any realistic long term fix would end up looking quite progressive and in our current hostile environment become a no-go for any conservative political appointee.

mastermage 7mo ago

Just to also play the devils advocate, why SHOULD women be having children earlier. Its very much a very personal choice in their own freedom. I don't think this should be a political take at all. In this decision there is nothing any Government should have a say in.

TimorousBestie 7mo ago
> Just to also play the devils advocate, why SHOULD women be having children earlier. Lower prevalence of complications, lower risk of death, lower risk of birth defects. > Its very much a very personal choice in their own freedom. We don’t disagree. > I don't think this should be a political take at all. In this decision there is nothing any Government should have a say in. Unfortunately, Americans don’t live in that world. The government makes decisions that impact the health of pregnant mothers and children all the time.
hattmall 7mo ago
To have a longer life with their children... It's not something government should regulate but it is something that government policy should incentivize.
- superxpro12 7mo ago
  Children are only children for about 10 years.... then they turn into teenagers and adults. this is nonsense.
- YCpedohaven 7mo ago
  > It's not something government should regulate but it is something that government policy should incentivize. Every time this comes up, there are numerous instances reported of welfare states in Europe, Asia, etc. trying this and it not working. The west, and especially the US is falling out of love with republicans and liberal democracy as they learn that some problems need to solved with an iron fist.
  - mindslight 7mo ago