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John Backus had some correspondence with Dijkstra that's worth a read: https://medium.com/@acidflask/this-guys-arrogance-takes-your-breath-away-5b903624ca5f#.3d

John Backus had some correspondence with Dijkstra that's worth a read: https://medium.com/@acidflask/this-guys-arrogance-takes-your-breath-away-5b903624ca5f#.3d80xpzgv https://medium.com/@acidflask/this-guys-arrogance-takes-your...

fidotron 7mo ago
There's that immortal Alan Kay line "arrogance in computer science is measured in nano Dijkstras".
- srean 7mo ago
  That's a famous quote and age might have mellowed him. But he was not like that at all in person with his students. He did insist that one be precise with ones words. The origin of the quote may have more to do with cultural differences between the Dutch and Americans.
  - blast 7mo ago
    That's a great point which never occurred to me about Dijkstra, even though I knew where he came from. My father in law used to like this joke: "He was Dutch and behaved as such."
    - Gibbon1 7mo ago
      I feel there is a tension between computer science is math and computer science is plumbing.
      - bittercynic 7mo ago
        Why not the both? Some seem to think that math is somehow above plumbing, but modern society couldn't exist without both, and I'd argue that modern plumbing is more critical to our health and well being than modern math.
        throaskjdsakn 7mo ago
        plumbing is one of those inventions that's so old we forget its importance
      - tharkun__ 7mo ago
        The plumber knows how many inches per foot the pipe has to drop in order for the poop to flow away and not get stuck in the pipe. It's easy enough to either not drop it enough and everything gets stuck or for it to drop too much and the water flows away but the poop stays in place. And they're the ones that actually make it happen and their clients really do care about that in the end. Without knowing this the plumber is nothing. They don't necessarily need to know they why and especially don't need to calculate it out! Some mathematician can probably calculate that properly. Some mathematician probably first did calculate that out to prove it. I'm not entirely certain that a mathematician was the reason that we know what drop we need. A lot of things in "real life" were "empirically discovered" and used and done for centuries before a mathematician proved it. Exceptions prove the rule, like when we calculate(d) things out for space travel before ever attempting it ;)
  - antonvs 7mo ago
    I’d want to see an example of Dijkstra’s “arrogance” that wasn’t justified. The “truths that might hurt” essay is a great example. Yeah, the truth hurts for many people. People don’t like being called out on their folly, particularly if it’s something they don’t personally control. That Durant make it “arrogant” to point it out. Also, Alan Kaye is overrated. Object orientation is one of those painful truths.
    - strken 7mo ago
      I'm less concerned about "justified" and more about "useful". If you behave offensively to everyone around you, then you have become your own worst enemy in the war of ideas. Ignaz Semmelweis was right. He also died in an asylum, having utterly failed to convince doctors to wash their hands between patients.
      - antonvs 7mo ago
        What do you think Semmelweis could have done differently, that actually could have worked? The assumption in what you’re saying is that it’s possible to convince ignorant, recalcitrant, authority-rejecting people to change their behavior. That’s great! Could you sketch an approach to get people to seriously try to solve global warming, then? No? How about fascism? No? So, what is your point, exactly?
        strken 7mo ago
        Well, he could have done what Pasteur or Koch did and become a pivotal figure in inventing germ theory. He could also have just lived out his life in obscurity and made things a little better in his hospital, doing what he could and quietly regretting that he couldn't change everyone's mind, until the emergence of germ theory. Instead, he got beaten to death by asylum guards after annoying and alienating everyone around him. That seems like a very obvious bad ending to me. I can't sketch out an approach to make the entire global population to listen to you. I can, however, warn you that being a gigantic douchebag to all your colleagues will not make them take your proposals seriously.
    - 7mo ago
- rramadass 7mo ago
  Alan Kay himself said this quote is taken out-of-context and so people need to stop repeating it - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11799963 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11799963
  - justin66 7mo ago
    > and so people need to stop repeating it That would seem to be your sentiment, not his, based on the link you shared. Rather than being censorious he shared a nice story on the matter.
    - rramadass 7mo ago
      No, it is not my sentiment nor am i being censorious. It can be inferred from Kay's own words. He probably was just poking fun in a tongue-in-cheek manner often seen amongst larger-than-life figures. John Backus called Edsger Dijkstra arrogant since the latter was highly critical of the former's research in functional programming (not the substance but the hyping). Kay was probably riffing off of that. The problem is that a lot of noobs/kids/oldies-who-should-know-better often dismiss(!) Dijkstra's work because of this silly quote. Thus in this case, a "nice story" is actually an obstacle to people reading Dijkstra.
      - justin66 7mo ago
        > Kay was probably riffing off of that. You don't need to hypothesize about all this, to put things in their proper context you could listen to the speech where he famously said it. https://youtu.be/aYT2se94eU0?t=324 https://youtu.be/aYT2se94eU0?t=324
        rramadass 7mo ago
        Yeah, i knew of the video. That somewhat proves the point i make here - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47331352 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47331352 People only focus on that phrase since it makes a nice "talking point" and ignore all the other interesting things from Kay's talk. For example; i never knew that most of Euler's proofs were wrong w.r.t. rigorous approach as defined today!
- elzbardico 7mo ago
  Dijkstras was not arrogant, he was Dutch.
coffeemug 7mo ago
Incredible letters, thanks for sharing. I wish some of this correspondence was published in physical books. What a joy it would be to read.
PaulRobinson 7mo ago
That's a wild ride of passive aggressive academia in a field I know something about. A rare treat. Thanks for sharing!

fidotron 7mo ago

There's that immortal Alan Kay line "arrogance in computer science is measured in nano Dijkstras".

srean 7mo ago
That's a famous quote and age might have mellowed him. But he was not like that at all in person with his students. He did insist that one be precise with ones words. The origin of the quote may have more to do with cultural differences between the Dutch and Americans.
- blast 7mo ago
  That's a great point which never occurred to me about Dijkstra, even though I knew where he came from. My father in law used to like this joke: "He was Dutch and behaved as such."
  - Gibbon1 7mo ago
    I feel there is a tension between computer science is math and computer science is plumbing.
    - bittercynic 7mo ago
      Why not the both? Some seem to think that math is somehow above plumbing, but modern society couldn't exist without both, and I'd argue that modern plumbing is more critical to our health and well being than modern math.
      - throaskjdsakn 7mo ago
        plumbing is one of those inventions that's so old we forget its importance
    - tharkun__ 7mo ago
      The plumber knows how many inches per foot the pipe has to drop in order for the poop to flow away and not get stuck in the pipe. It's easy enough to either not drop it enough and everything gets stuck or for it to drop too much and the water flows away but the poop stays in place. And they're the ones that actually make it happen and their clients really do care about that in the end. Without knowing this the plumber is nothing. They don't necessarily need to know they why and especially don't need to calculate it out! Some mathematician can probably calculate that properly. Some mathematician probably first did calculate that out to prove it. I'm not entirely certain that a mathematician was the reason that we know what drop we need. A lot of things in "real life" were "empirically discovered" and used and done for centuries before a mathematician proved it. Exceptions prove the rule, like when we calculate(d) things out for space travel before ever attempting it ;)
- antonvs 7mo ago
  I’d want to see an example of Dijkstra’s “arrogance” that wasn’t justified. The “truths that might hurt” essay is a great example. Yeah, the truth hurts for many people. People don’t like being called out on their folly, particularly if it’s something they don’t personally control. That Durant make it “arrogant” to point it out. Also, Alan Kaye is overrated. Object orientation is one of those painful truths.
  - strken 7mo ago
    I'm less concerned about "justified" and more about "useful". If you behave offensively to everyone around you, then you have become your own worst enemy in the war of ideas. Ignaz Semmelweis was right. He also died in an asylum, having utterly failed to convince doctors to wash their hands between patients.
    - antonvs 7mo ago
      What do you think Semmelweis could have done differently, that actually could have worked? The assumption in what you’re saying is that it’s possible to convince ignorant, recalcitrant, authority-rejecting people to change their behavior. That’s great! Could you sketch an approach to get people to seriously try to solve global warming, then? No? How about fascism? No? So, what is your point, exactly?
      - strken 7mo ago
        Well, he could have done what Pasteur or Koch did and become a pivotal figure in inventing germ theory. He could also have just lived out his life in obscurity and made things a little better in his hospital, doing what he could and quietly regretting that he couldn't change everyone's mind, until the emergence of germ theory. Instead, he got beaten to death by asylum guards after annoying and alienating everyone around him. That seems like a very obvious bad ending to me. I can't sketch out an approach to make the entire global population to listen to you. I can, however, warn you that being a gigantic douchebag to all your colleagues will not make them take your proposals seriously.
  - 7mo ago
rramadass 7mo ago
Alan Kay himself said this quote is taken out-of-context and so people need to stop repeating it - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11799963 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11799963
- justin66 7mo ago
  > and so people need to stop repeating it That would seem to be your sentiment, not his, based on the link you shared. Rather than being censorious he shared a nice story on the matter.
  - rramadass 7mo ago
    No, it is not my sentiment nor am i being censorious. It can be inferred from Kay's own words. He probably was just poking fun in a tongue-in-cheek manner often seen amongst larger-than-life figures. John Backus called Edsger Dijkstra arrogant since the latter was highly critical of the former's research in functional programming (not the substance but the hyping). Kay was probably riffing off of that. The problem is that a lot of noobs/kids/oldies-who-should-know-better often dismiss(!) Dijkstra's work because of this silly quote. Thus in this case, a "nice story" is actually an obstacle to people reading Dijkstra.
    - justin66 7mo ago
      > Kay was probably riffing off of that. You don't need to hypothesize about all this, to put things in their proper context you could listen to the speech where he famously said it. https://youtu.be/aYT2se94eU0?t=324 https://youtu.be/aYT2se94eU0?t=324
      - rramadass 7mo ago
        Yeah, i knew of the video. That somewhat proves the point i make here - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47331352 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47331352 People only focus on that phrase since it makes a nice "talking point" and ignore all the other interesting things from Kay's talk. For example; i never knew that most of Euler's proofs were wrong w.r.t. rigorous approach as defined today!
elzbardico 7mo ago
Dijkstras was not arrogant, he was Dutch.

coffeemug 7mo ago

Incredible letters, thanks for sharing. I wish some of this correspondence was published in physical books. What a joy it would be to read.

PaulRobinson 7mo ago

That's a wild ride of passive aggressive academia in a field I know something about. A rare treat. Thanks for sharing!