3 ms·

For people that use Lisp extensively, do you find the chording requirements of parentheses (shift-9 or shift-0) annoying? It feels like very bad ergonomics, con

by iroddis 7mo ago

For people that use Lisp extensively, do you find the chording requirements of parentheses (shift-9 or shift-0) annoying? It feels like very bad ergonomics, considering how frequently the characters are used. Do you use a keyboard with mappings to make it easier? Rely on the editor to insert them for you?

tmtvl 7mo ago
I mean, double quotes and curly brackets also require using the Shift key, as do the at sign, number sign, dollar sign, and ampersand. The brackets are a small enough part of the code that it doesn't matter. And besides: print("Hello World"); requires just as much chording as: (print "Hello World")
- amenhotep 7mo ago
  Mostly these days it just requires that you start to type "print" and then press tab when appropriate, though. I feel like I relatively rarely type brackets manually for function calls. Lisp syntax doesn't seem amenable to this particular affordance?
  - tmtvl 7mo ago
    Why not? Could just type 'print', TAB, and have it put brackets and spaces in the right positions and leave the cursor in place for the first argument.
- iroddis 7mo ago
  That’s true, but the travel distance of the braces or the double quotes from the home row is much less than the travel distance from the parentheses. Just using shift isn’t the problem, it’s how far parens are from the normal hand position.
  - tmtvl 7mo ago
    > That’s true, but the travel distance of the braces or the double quotes from the home row is much less than the travel distance from the parentheses. That... depends on your keyboard maybe? On Dvorak the curly brackets are harder to reach than the round brackets. The open round bracket is also hit with the ring finger instead of the little finger, which is weaker.
dingleberry 7mo ago
probably not worse ergonomic because i type '(' with left pinky and right ring finger and ')' with left pinky and right pinky whereas {} [] etc, i have to use the very same overworked right pinky to distinguish two keys next to each other. i always have problems with keys that have no obvious dedicated finger position like the middle vertical columns especially 6 and b and of course keys reachable on the right pinky, especially \ and =
Jtsummers 7mo ago
It's pretty much the same number of bracket-type characters as other languages, and both () and {} require the use of the shift key. Only counting the parentheses and curly braces: (defun hello (name) (format t "Hello, ~A!" name)) ;; 6 parens, 6 shift keys def hello(name): print(f"Hello, {name}") # 4 parens, 2 curlies, 6 shift keys void hello(char* name) { printf("Hello, %s\n", name); } // 4 parens, 2 curlies, 6 shift keys No real difference for typing.
joshmoody24 7mo ago
My ring finger is always slightly sore due to typing ( so often. Not just in LISP but any programming language. I've been experimenting with mapping l; to () when the caps lock key is pressed. So far so good, but I haven't used it long enough to develop muscle memory.
obezyian 7mo ago
It is bad ergonomics only on modern keyboards. Back in the day, there were keyboards with "lower case parentheses"[1]. Same case for vi - the : key was in a different place, and no Shift necessary[2]. Nowadays, I use a bespoke layout (in software) that solves the above two problems, among others. My number row is inverted, so parentheses become lower case, and I put the colon key next to 0 and Enter next to P. [1]: http://xahlee.info/kbd/lisp_keyboards.html http://xahlee.info/kbd/lisp_keyboards.html [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADM-3A#Hardware https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADM-3A#Hardware
so-cal-schemer 7mo ago
A civilized language deserves a civilized layout[1]: [{ 1| 2= 3~ 4+ 5< 6> 7^ 8& 9% 0* ]} /\ bB yY oO uU '( ") dD nN gG vV qQ #$ @` hH iI aA eE ,; .: tT rR sS cC zZ kK jJ xX wW -_ ?! mM lL fF pP [1]: https://github.com/binarybottle/engram https://github.com/binarybottle/engram
- deleted 7mo ago
  [deleted]
- so-cal-schemer 7mo ago
  See also: Parinfer: Simpler Lisp Editing (shaunlebron.github.io) 168 points by harperlee on Jan 20, 2025 | hide | past | favorite | 32 comments https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42766205 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42766205
deleted 7mo ago
[deleted]

by iroddis 7mo ago

tmtvl 7mo ago

I mean, double quotes and curly brackets also require using the Shift key, as do the at sign, number sign, dollar sign, and ampersand. The brackets are a small enough part of the code that it doesn't matter. And besides: print("Hello World"); requires just as much chording as: (print "Hello World")

amenhotep 7mo ago
Mostly these days it just requires that you start to type "print" and then press tab when appropriate, though. I feel like I relatively rarely type brackets manually for function calls. Lisp syntax doesn't seem amenable to this particular affordance?
- tmtvl 7mo ago
  Why not? Could just type 'print', TAB, and have it put brackets and spaces in the right positions and leave the cursor in place for the first argument.
iroddis 7mo ago
That’s true, but the travel distance of the braces or the double quotes from the home row is much less than the travel distance from the parentheses. Just using shift isn’t the problem, it’s how far parens are from the normal hand position.
- tmtvl 7mo ago
  > That’s true, but the travel distance of the braces or the double quotes from the home row is much less than the travel distance from the parentheses. That... depends on your keyboard maybe? On Dvorak the curly brackets are harder to reach than the round brackets. The open round bracket is also hit with the ring finger instead of the little finger, which is weaker.

dingleberry 7mo ago

probably not worse ergonomic because i type '(' with left pinky and right ring finger and ')' with left pinky and right pinky whereas {} [] etc, i have to use the very same overworked right pinky to distinguish two keys next to each other. i always have problems with keys that have no obvious dedicated finger position like the middle vertical columns especially 6 and b and of course keys reachable on the right pinky, especially \ and =

Jtsummers 7mo ago

It's pretty much the same number of bracket-type characters as other languages, and both () and {} require the use of the shift key. Only counting the parentheses and curly braces: (defun hello (name) (format t "Hello, ~A!" name)) ;; 6 parens, 6 shift keys def hello(name): print(f"Hello, {name}") # 4 parens, 2 curlies, 6 shift keys void hello(char* name) { printf("Hello, %s\n", name); } // 4 parens, 2 curlies, 6 shift keys No real difference for typing.

joshmoody24 7mo ago

My ring finger is always slightly sore due to typing ( so often. Not just in LISP but any programming language. I've been experimenting with mapping l; to () when the caps lock key is pressed. So far so good, but I haven't used it long enough to develop muscle memory.

obezyian 7mo ago

It is bad ergonomics only on modern keyboards. Back in the day, there were keyboards with "lower case parentheses"[1]. Same case for vi - the : key was in a different place, and no Shift necessary[2]. Nowadays, I use a bespoke layout (in software) that solves the above two problems, among others. My number row is inverted, so parentheses become lower case, and I put the colon key next to 0 and Enter next to P. [1]: http://xahlee.info/kbd/lisp_keyboards.html http://xahlee.info/kbd/lisp_keyboards.html [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADM-3A#Hardware https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADM-3A#Hardware

so-cal-schemer 7mo ago

A civilized language deserves a civilized layout[1]: [{ 1| 2= 3~ 4+ 5< 6> 7^ 8& 9% 0* ]} /\ bB yY oO uU '( ") dD nN gG vV qQ #$ @` hH iI aA eE ,; .: tT rR sS cC zZ kK jJ xX wW -_ ?! mM lL fF pP [1]: https://github.com/binarybottle/engram https://github.com/binarybottle/engram

deleted 7mo ago
[deleted]
so-cal-schemer 7mo ago
See also: Parinfer: Simpler Lisp Editing (shaunlebron.github.io) 168 points by harperlee on Jan 20, 2025 | hide | past | favorite | 32 comments https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42766205 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42766205

deleted 7mo ago

[deleted]