4 ms·

right. "it's not about the money". let's check that out: here's the GS pay schedule, for reference: http://www.opm.gov/oca/12tables/html/gs.asp http://www.opm.

by munin 14y ago

right. "it's not about the money". let's check that out: here's the GS pay schedule, for reference: http://www.opm.gov/oca/12tables/html/gs.asp http://www.opm.gov/oca/12tables/html/gs.asp note how you're not going to crack 6 figures until the end of your GS-14. How long does it take to get to GS-14? somewhere between 5-10 years in service, if you're lucky. if you're not lucky, you might never make it. why so long? because advancement through grades is entirely based on time in service. there is nothing your management chain, up to the president, can do to pay you more. it would take, literally, an act of congress. hooray! oh yeah, as a graduate with a CS degree from a good (CMU, MIT, etc) school, you will start as a GS-7 or a GS-9. which is about 40k. 2nd tier tech companies and consulting companies will start you at literally double that. if you are really good, companies like msft and amazon will start you at literally TRIPLE that. so... how is this a choice for anyone? why does the government delude itself that it isn't about the money?

Devilboy 14y ago
So I guess most of the 'real' work will be done by private contractors.
sliverstorm 14y ago
Well, the government has never been directly competitive on wages- things like job stability and pensions have been offered to help balance things out. Aside from that, DoHS may not need $80k CMU/MIT grads. There is a whole middle of the pool to draw from that didn't go to CMU/MIT. They probably don't intend to develop the next SELinux as much as apply existing technology in an intelligent way.
- munin 14y ago
  I make a point about salary because in the article, a DHS official is quoted as saying that the retention problems are not caused by money. I claim that's BS. they're totally caused by money. even if you go to a crappy school, if you are a solid programmer or system administrator, you should be able to walk into a tech job out of graduation for no less than $60k. I was able to get an IT job in the private sector with just a HS diploma that made more than ($40k) what new government workers with relevant skills and a 4 year degree were offered/making, and after 6 months at that job I had offers for 50% more (how long would you have to be on the GS scale to see this kind of movement? a lot longer than 6 months). also, no more pensions for government workers (AFAIK), at least many of them. you do have essentially job permanence though, is that worth only earning 1/3rd of your potential? the salary thing is initially okay though, cos you were broke in college so whatever, you're still broke. later, when you're 26, making $60 doing computer programming, your friends are 26, making $140 doing computer programming, and your wife looks at you and says "hey so why can Tom and Nancy have children and also live in a house instead of share an apartment with another couple?" ...
  - sliverstorm 14y ago
    $140k with a bachelor's and 4 years experience? If you start at $60k (the number you gave first), that's like a 25% raise every year. Man, did I pick the wrong career.
    - munin 14y ago
      numbers are based off of data from glassdoor etc, conversations with recruiters, and my personal experiences / my friends and acquaintances experiences (where those personal experiences include salary negotiations with candidates) sorry :(
    - aeontech 14y ago
      140K with 4 years experience seems really really fast to me, but if you are good at negotiation/politics, perhaps it can be done. Or if you are hired by a bubble company.
  - forgottenpaswrd 14y ago
    "I claim that's BS. they're totally caused by money." I disagree. The best hackers I know HATE working for the gobertment, because they hate working for "the man", or any bureaucratic organization, and gob is the definition of bureaucracy. Being told constantly what to do, no freedom, and stupid political bosses is the main reason, not money.
    - lumberjack 14y ago
      Looking at some successful startups in the very recent past can easily be a counterpoint to your statement. I don't think I need to say more.
mjwalshe 14y ago
AS the Security Service official history says this is a problem in the UK and is teh major gripe for the staff

by munin 14y ago

Devilboy 14y ago

So I guess most of the 'real' work will be done by private contractors.

sliverstorm 14y ago

Well, the government has never been directly competitive on wages- things like job stability and pensions have been offered to help balance things out. Aside from that, DoHS may not need $80k CMU/MIT grads. There is a whole middle of the pool to draw from that didn't go to CMU/MIT. They probably don't intend to develop the next SELinux as much as apply existing technology in an intelligent way.

munin 14y ago
I make a point about salary because in the article, a DHS official is quoted as saying that the retention problems are not caused by money. I claim that's BS. they're totally caused by money. even if you go to a crappy school, if you are a solid programmer or system administrator, you should be able to walk into a tech job out of graduation for no less than $60k. I was able to get an IT job in the private sector with just a HS diploma that made more than ($40k) what new government workers with relevant skills and a 4 year degree were offered/making, and after 6 months at that job I had offers for 50% more (how long would you have to be on the GS scale to see this kind of movement? a lot longer than 6 months). also, no more pensions for government workers (AFAIK), at least many of them. you do have essentially job permanence though, is that worth only earning 1/3rd of your potential? the salary thing is initially okay though, cos you were broke in college so whatever, you're still broke. later, when you're 26, making $60 doing computer programming, your friends are 26, making $140 doing computer programming, and your wife looks at you and says "hey so why can Tom and Nancy have children and also live in a house instead of share an apartment with another couple?" ...
- sliverstorm 14y ago
  $140k with a bachelor's and 4 years experience? If you start at $60k (the number you gave first), that's like a 25% raise every year. Man, did I pick the wrong career.
  - munin 14y ago
    numbers are based off of data from glassdoor etc, conversations with recruiters, and my personal experiences / my friends and acquaintances experiences (where those personal experiences include salary negotiations with candidates) sorry :(
  - aeontech 14y ago
    140K with 4 years experience seems really really fast to me, but if you are good at negotiation/politics, perhaps it can be done. Or if you are hired by a bubble company.
- forgottenpaswrd 14y ago
  "I claim that's BS. they're totally caused by money." I disagree. The best hackers I know HATE working for the gobertment, because they hate working for "the man", or any bureaucratic organization, and gob is the definition of bureaucracy. Being told constantly what to do, no freedom, and stupid political bosses is the main reason, not money.
  - lumberjack 14y ago
    Looking at some successful startups in the very recent past can easily be a counterpoint to your statement. I don't think I need to say more.

mjwalshe 14y ago

AS the Security Service official history says this is a problem in the UK and is teh major gripe for the staff