3 ms·

I could google it, but I would rather ask HN: what are the best pens (or pen(cil)/paper-combination) for keeping written text as long as possible? I had some St

I could google it, but I would rather ask HN: what are the best pens (or pen(cil)/paper-combination) for keeping written text as long as possible? I had some Stabilo pen which was very nice ergonomically, but the blue ink faded within a couple of years (laying on my window sil in the sun, but still). My guess is: regular graphite pencil on porous paper is best. Any ideas about further things I have to take into account?

sandworm101 7mo ago
Black ink on white paper, stored in a cool dark place, will last many decades. If may fade but will remain readable. Want centuries? Use skin parchment. Millenia? An engraving pen on glass. Going for longer? Take a grinder to a block of granite, but the real problem there is the lack of geologically-stable storage on this planet.
- nine_k 7mo ago
  Granite is heavy and brittle. Instead, take a plate made of platinum or iridium, and engrave information on it. It offers excellent mechanical, chemical, and thermal durability. It can sink in volcanic lava and then hammered back out from the resulting rock, intact. (Expensive though.)
  - GJim 7mo ago
    > Instead, take a plate made of platinum or iridium No no no no no! Archival data should never be made on intrinsically valuable material; doing so makes it subject to theft or re-use for something "better". Example: There is a reason why more marble statues survive from antiquity than bronze statues.... Bronze has an intrinsic value (theft) and future artists would also melt down existing bronze statues to make something "better".
- rambambram 7mo ago
  A couple of millennia might suffice. ;) Thanks for the input. The engraving pen on glass is a good one. Any experience with it?
- ian-g 7mo ago
  An engraving pen on glass? Why not get some sheet glass and a stick of color. Write it directly onto the glass _in glass_
fhdkweig 7mo ago
I vote for graphite on paper. Ink will run if the paper gets wet. Of all the damage that has occurred to my papers, water is the most common. I keep a copy of important phone numbers written inside my wallet in case I ever lose my phone. Between an unexpected rainstorm, to an unchecked pocket before putting pants in a washing machine, to a spilled drink, I have gotten my wallet wet several times. Every time I used ink, I had to rewrite the list, but now with graphite, it isn't a problem.
- rambambram 7mo ago
  Thanks! I appreciate the input. Do you just use regular graphite pencils, like with the HB scale or something?
  - fhdkweig 7mo ago
    I just use the same BIC mechanical pencils with #2 lead that I picked up in college. No reason to get complicated.
- adrian_b 7mo ago
  Only ordinary dye-based ink will run if the paper gets wet. It is easy to find either roller pens or ink for fountain pens that are pigment-based, lightfast and waterproof. It is very easy to test yourself that with such ink water has no effect whatsoever over the written text (after a minute or so of drying after writing). For example, there are many kinds of Uni-Ball roller pens with waterproof ink, but there also many other brands with similar products. (Only fountain pens, roller pens and gel pens may have pigment-based ink, the paste ink used by ball-point pens is easily washed by alcohol or other organic solvents.) In my experience with graphite on paper, it is a much worse choice, because the writing will fade over the years, due to the rubbing of the paper sheets from each other. The pigment-based black inks also use carbon, like graphite pencils, but any ink contains not only a pigment, but also a glue that binds the pigment to the paper, so it will not be rubbed out by touching it.
lich_king 7mo ago
I don't think there's a simple answer. For example, someone recommended black ink on white paper, but it really depends on the composition of that ink. Inorganic pigments last forever, but the ink used in black sharpies actually fades pretty quickly. Pencil definitely lasts if the paper is undisturbed. I have some paperwork that's 100+ years old and with legible pencil text. On the flip side, if the paper is handled a lot, the writing will gradually fade because graphite particles just sit on the surface and can flake off. On some level, the medium is your main problem. Low-grade paper, especially if stored in suboptimal conditions (hot attic, moist crawlspace, etc), may start falling apart in 20 years or less. Thick, acid-free stock stored under controlled conditions can survive hundreds of years.
- rambambram 7mo ago
  Thanks for the insight. Acid-free paper sounds like the way to go. Do you have experience with this? Or is it common knowledge? Just curious! I also read letters from my grandparents, stored by my parents in a simple shoe box. No special conditions, just light-free and inside the home for decades. They were still very much readable. I did not pay enough attention, but I guess it was blue ink from back in the day that they used.
  - lich_king 7mo ago
    > Do you have experience with this? Or is it common knowledge? Just curious! I collect vintage stuff that sometimes comes with paperwork, usually after spending a decade or two stashed away in the attic.
wrboyce 7mo ago
In the UK “registrar’s ink” is used for marriage certificates, I believe it is supposed to be good for many hundreds of years.
- Steve44 7mo ago
  I was going to say registrars in too, I've a bottle of this I've played about with. https://www.diamineinks.co.uk/products/diamine-30ml-archival-registrars-ink https://www.diamineinks.co.uk/products/diamine-30ml-archival... > Waterproof archival quality fountain pen ink in Blue-Black. Initially writes Blue, then oxidises to Black over time as it bonds to the paper. Traditionally used to record births, deaths & marriages. And from another source :- > Permanent archival blue-black ink based on an iron-gall formulation, as used by registrars and the clergy for official documents. > Iron gall ink formulations have been used for around 1,500 years, and many of the world's most historic documents have been written using it. This ink will remain legible for hundreds of years. > Please Note: This is an iron-gall ink, which contains particles that can clog fountain pen feeds. It's also acidic, which can damage steel nibs. Use with caution, and at your own risk. Not for use in valuable pens.
Havoc 7mo ago
I'd think thin copper sheet on something soft would also work. That indentation will probably outlast any sort of ink
adrian_b 7mo ago
For keeping written text as long as possible it matters which are the risks for various things that can happen to the text, because no writing method is equally resistant to all of them. There are at least 4 dangers for a written text: mechanical rubbing, fading due to light, water and organic solvents (e.g. alcohol). There are many pigment-based inks that are specified to be lightfast and resistant to water and organic solvents, according to various archiving standards. Such inks are available for fountain pens or they are used in certain kinds of roller pens. If you use such inks on paper that is somewhat porous, they will also be resistant to rubbing. There are certain kinds of "permanent pens", which have excellent resistance to rubbing even when you write on surfaces like plastic, glass or metal, not only on glossy paper, and which may also be lightfast and waterproof, but the text written with such permanent pens is easily washed with alcohol or other organic solvents (like also for text written with ball-point pens). So the answer depends on your goal, but usually what you want is either a roller pen or ink for a fountain pen that are clearly specified as being pigment-based, lightfast and waterproof, together with paper on which you have checked that rubbing does not remove the written text. When using fountain pens, one must check that the archival pigment-based ink is known to be compatible with the model of fountain pen, otherwise clogging may occur. (For example, I use pigment-based ink cartridges from Sailor Japan, seiboku or souboku, with Sailor fountain pens, so compatibility is guaranteed.) While graphite-based pencils produce writing that is lightfast and resistant to solvents, in my experience the inherent rubbing of the sheets of paper when you handle the notebook, or whatever you had used for writing, leads over the years to a fading of the text, so I do not like this method.

sandworm101 7mo ago

Black ink on white paper, stored in a cool dark place, will last many decades. If may fade but will remain readable. Want centuries? Use skin parchment. Millenia? An engraving pen on glass. Going for longer? Take a grinder to a block of granite, but the real problem there is the lack of geologically-stable storage on this planet.

nine_k 7mo ago
Granite is heavy and brittle. Instead, take a plate made of platinum or iridium, and engrave information on it. It offers excellent mechanical, chemical, and thermal durability. It can sink in volcanic lava and then hammered back out from the resulting rock, intact. (Expensive though.)
- GJim 7mo ago
  > Instead, take a plate made of platinum or iridium No no no no no! Archival data should never be made on intrinsically valuable material; doing so makes it subject to theft or re-use for something "better". Example: There is a reason why more marble statues survive from antiquity than bronze statues.... Bronze has an intrinsic value (theft) and future artists would also melt down existing bronze statues to make something "better".
rambambram 7mo ago
A couple of millennia might suffice. ;) Thanks for the input. The engraving pen on glass is a good one. Any experience with it?
ian-g 7mo ago
An engraving pen on glass? Why not get some sheet glass and a stick of color. Write it directly onto the glass _in glass_

fhdkweig 7mo ago

I vote for graphite on paper. Ink will run if the paper gets wet. Of all the damage that has occurred to my papers, water is the most common. I keep a copy of important phone numbers written inside my wallet in case I ever lose my phone. Between an unexpected rainstorm, to an unchecked pocket before putting pants in a washing machine, to a spilled drink, I have gotten my wallet wet several times. Every time I used ink, I had to rewrite the list, but now with graphite, it isn't a problem.

rambambram 7mo ago
Thanks! I appreciate the input. Do you just use regular graphite pencils, like with the HB scale or something?
- fhdkweig 7mo ago
  I just use the same BIC mechanical pencils with #2 lead that I picked up in college. No reason to get complicated.
adrian_b 7mo ago
Only ordinary dye-based ink will run if the paper gets wet. It is easy to find either roller pens or ink for fountain pens that are pigment-based, lightfast and waterproof. It is very easy to test yourself that with such ink water has no effect whatsoever over the written text (after a minute or so of drying after writing). For example, there are many kinds of Uni-Ball roller pens with waterproof ink, but there also many other brands with similar products. (Only fountain pens, roller pens and gel pens may have pigment-based ink, the paste ink used by ball-point pens is easily washed by alcohol or other organic solvents.) In my experience with graphite on paper, it is a much worse choice, because the writing will fade over the years, due to the rubbing of the paper sheets from each other. The pigment-based black inks also use carbon, like graphite pencils, but any ink contains not only a pigment, but also a glue that binds the pigment to the paper, so it will not be rubbed out by touching it.

lich_king 7mo ago

I don't think there's a simple answer. For example, someone recommended black ink on white paper, but it really depends on the composition of that ink. Inorganic pigments last forever, but the ink used in black sharpies actually fades pretty quickly. Pencil definitely lasts if the paper is undisturbed. I have some paperwork that's 100+ years old and with legible pencil text. On the flip side, if the paper is handled a lot, the writing will gradually fade because graphite particles just sit on the surface and can flake off. On some level, the medium is your main problem. Low-grade paper, especially if stored in suboptimal conditions (hot attic, moist crawlspace, etc), may start falling apart in 20 years or less. Thick, acid-free stock stored under controlled conditions can survive hundreds of years.

rambambram 7mo ago
Thanks for the insight. Acid-free paper sounds like the way to go. Do you have experience with this? Or is it common knowledge? Just curious! I also read letters from my grandparents, stored by my parents in a simple shoe box. No special conditions, just light-free and inside the home for decades. They were still very much readable. I did not pay enough attention, but I guess it was blue ink from back in the day that they used.
- lich_king 7mo ago
  > Do you have experience with this? Or is it common knowledge? Just curious! I collect vintage stuff that sometimes comes with paperwork, usually after spending a decade or two stashed away in the attic.

wrboyce 7mo ago

In the UK “registrar’s ink” is used for marriage certificates, I believe it is supposed to be good for many hundreds of years.

Steve44 7mo ago
I was going to say registrars in too, I've a bottle of this I've played about with. https://www.diamineinks.co.uk/products/diamine-30ml-archival-registrars-ink https://www.diamineinks.co.uk/products/diamine-30ml-archival... > Waterproof archival quality fountain pen ink in Blue-Black. Initially writes Blue, then oxidises to Black over time as it bonds to the paper. Traditionally used to record births, deaths & marriages. And from another source :- > Permanent archival blue-black ink based on an iron-gall formulation, as used by registrars and the clergy for official documents. > Iron gall ink formulations have been used for around 1,500 years, and many of the world's most historic documents have been written using it. This ink will remain legible for hundreds of years. > Please Note: This is an iron-gall ink, which contains particles that can clog fountain pen feeds. It's also acidic, which can damage steel nibs. Use with caution, and at your own risk. Not for use in valuable pens.

Havoc 7mo ago

I'd think thin copper sheet on something soft would also work. That indentation will probably outlast any sort of ink

adrian_b 7mo ago

For keeping written text as long as possible it matters which are the risks for various things that can happen to the text, because no writing method is equally resistant to all of them. There are at least 4 dangers for a written text: mechanical rubbing, fading due to light, water and organic solvents (e.g. alcohol). There are many pigment-based inks that are specified to be lightfast and resistant to water and organic solvents, according to various archiving standards. Such inks are available for fountain pens or they are used in certain kinds of roller pens. If you use such inks on paper that is somewhat porous, they will also be resistant to rubbing. There are certain kinds of "permanent pens", which have excellent resistance to rubbing even when you write on surfaces like plastic, glass or metal, not only on glossy paper, and which may also be lightfast and waterproof, but the text written with such permanent pens is easily washed with alcohol or other organic solvents (like also for text written with ball-point pens). So the answer depends on your goal, but usually what you want is either a roller pen or ink for a fountain pen that are clearly specified as being pigment-based, lightfast and waterproof, together with paper on which you have checked that rubbing does not remove the written text. When using fountain pens, one must check that the archival pigment-based ink is known to be compatible with the model of fountain pen, otherwise clogging may occur. (For example, I use pigment-based ink cartridges from Sailor Japan, seiboku or souboku, with Sailor fountain pens, so compatibility is guaranteed.) While graphite-based pencils produce writing that is lightfast and resistant to solvents, in my experience the inherent rubbing of the sheets of paper when you handle the notebook, or whatever you had used for writing, leads over the years to a fading of the text, so I do not like this method.