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> The only people I've ever heard complain about the slight difficulty are techies Because everyone else has never heard of mastodon or this fediverse shit. Of

> The only people I've ever heard complain about the slight difficulty are techies Because everyone else has never heard of mastodon or this fediverse shit. Of course you don't hear complaints from people who don't know what it is. > I'll take normies over There are no "normies" as you call them using federated services. They don't want to need to think about server to server federation rules. They want a global central feed.

krapp 8mo ago
I've seen plenty of "normal" and non "techie" people on Mastodon. And the point is the complaints about the "complexity" of Mastodon - which isn't really that complex you can literally join an instance as easily as signing up for a subreddit - are disingenuous coming from this crowd.
- BugsJustFindMe 8mo ago
  People don't want to join "an instance". People don't want to care about what "an instance" is which also means being asked to be aware of things like instance-specific moderation rules. And I don't know what it's like now, but cross-server following used to be quite annoying.
  - krapp 8mo ago
    People join "rooms", "lobbies", "boards", "subs", "groups", "servers" and the like all the time, and deal with moderation rules.
    - BugsJustFindMe 8mo ago
      Facebook groups and subreddits became so popular because they're all on centralized websites so you can join many of them all in one place and you can talk to people in all of them through the same platform. Single service, single login domain, single thing to tell your grandparents, and, very very very importantly, single global search. There are major differences between "subs"/"rooms" that are fundamentally joined and independently operated protocol hosts that are fundamentally not.
      - krapp 8mo ago
        Those differences are not so complex and confusing that you need deep technical skill to figure them out. You can follow anyone from any instance (per the rules, if you're on someone else's instance) or follow hashtags or use relays if you run your own instance (for which numerous services exist.) The most difficult part of Mastodon is linking to other instances but even that just involves using the search bar.
        BugsJustFindMe 8mo ago
        > Those differences are not so complex and confusing One might ask why Bluesky has more sign-ups and monthly active users acquired in less time even without the facestagram login power funnel that Threads has. And of course Threads has waaaaaayyy more. The evidence of what people want from a social media service is right in front of us and very clear. This reads to me very much like the timeless words of Seymour Skinner, "Am I so out of touch? No! It's the children who are wrong."
        krapp 8mo ago
        Bluesky had the benefit of marketing, association with Twitter and the support of influencers and Threads is owned by Meta and is integrated into Facebook. What is that supposed to prove, beyond that advertising companies are good at advertising themselves?
        BugsJustFindMe 8mo ago
        > Bluesky had the benefit of marketing, association with Twitter and the support of influencers Everywhere that people have ever asked why people join Bluesky and not Mastodon, the objections to Bluesky are always philosophical (not actually decentralized, corporate overlords, and so forth) and the objections to Mastodon are always practical (signup sucks[ed?], search sucks[ed?], feed curation sucks[ed?]). Bluesky's selling point has always been "like Twitter, better control, none of the bullshit of Mastodon". That's exactly why any influencers went there and not to Mastodon. Look... I'm not telling you my opinion, I'm communicating the common message given over and over and over by everyone who looked and bounced and talked about it. And when people say over and over and over that Mastodon is frustrating, and people have indeed said that over and over and over, all you need to do is believe them instead of saying they're wrong. Threads has the trifecta of like Twitter, not Twitter, connected to maybe the biggest central platform in the world.
  - alsetmusic 8mo ago
    > People don't want to care about what "an instance" is which also means being asked to be aware of things like instance-specific moderation rules. I can tell you how this reads to me: "I consider myself among peers with coders, scientists, and founders. Being asked to understand pretty simple concepts is too much for me." I am a happy user of Lemmy. Was there more to understand than how to join Reddit? Yes. Is the fediverse simple enough to understand that people on HN should be viewed with incredulity when they make statements that it's too difficult / too much? Unless they're speaking about people who aren't HN commenters, also yes.
    - BugsJustFindMe 8mo ago
      > "I consider myself among peers with coders, scientists, and founders. Being asked to understand pretty simple concepts is too much for me." I think I can clarify the framing here. People of all walks are extremely uninterested in being told that they need to care about something that they do not care about. For most people, I bet almost all people, decentralization can really just get fucked, because decentralization is not what people are there for. Connection is. What federation offers is just not important to...as a percentage, almost anyone...in relation to what it removes. Think about it this way: many things are too annoying for you to put up with, even if you technically are capable of dealing with them were you willing to give more energy than you believe is reasonable to give. See also, juice vs squeeze. See also, the iron imperative of writing ("don't waste the reader's time") applies to more than just writing. Also... > "I consider myself among peers with coders, scientists, and founders." One might call it empathy to commiserate with the perspectives of people who are not those things. It's a judgement error to expect a platform to be something other than niche without that. One can also be all of those things and have zero patience for software that has an annoying user experience.
      - alsetmusic 8mo ago
        > People of all walks are extremely uninterested in being told that they need to care about something that they do not care about. You don’t care. There it is. Just say it. It’s not a crime. I’m not judging you. I’m really not. I care and it might not matter, but I do. It’s not for you. That’s ok. Don’t bag on it for reasons other than this. It’s not difficult and I don’t care if you don’t care. It’s fine.
  - Yodel0914 8mo ago
    Being able to join an instance with its own culture, while still being able to connect outside that culture, is the only reason I use any social media at all. I understand it can be confusing for people coming from Twitter or Facebook or wherever, the local instance culture is Mastodon’s greatest strength. That, of course, and the lack drive to turn a profit from users.
    - BugsJustFindMe 8mo ago
      It sounds like we're on the same page. :)
rsynnott 8mo ago
I suppose define 'normies'? There are plenty of non-techies, but they're often primarily using it for a specific community.
- BugsJustFindMe 8mo ago
  Eh. I'm not going to defend OP's use of the term "normies". It's pejorative and fundamentally othering. > plenty of non-techies Viewing the concepts and consequences of federation (no global search, disjoint moderation by instance owners) as "tech" is a fundamental category error.

krapp 8mo ago

I've seen plenty of "normal" and non "techie" people on Mastodon. And the point is the complaints about the "complexity" of Mastodon - which isn't really that complex you can literally join an instance as easily as signing up for a subreddit - are disingenuous coming from this crowd.

BugsJustFindMe 8mo ago
People don't want to join "an instance". People don't want to care about what "an instance" is which also means being asked to be aware of things like instance-specific moderation rules. And I don't know what it's like now, but cross-server following used to be quite annoying.
- krapp 8mo ago
  People join "rooms", "lobbies", "boards", "subs", "groups", "servers" and the like all the time, and deal with moderation rules.
  - BugsJustFindMe 8mo ago
    Facebook groups and subreddits became so popular because they're all on centralized websites so you can join many of them all in one place and you can talk to people in all of them through the same platform. Single service, single login domain, single thing to tell your grandparents, and, very very very importantly, single global search. There are major differences between "subs"/"rooms" that are fundamentally joined and independently operated protocol hosts that are fundamentally not.
    - krapp 8mo ago
      Those differences are not so complex and confusing that you need deep technical skill to figure them out. You can follow anyone from any instance (per the rules, if you're on someone else's instance) or follow hashtags or use relays if you run your own instance (for which numerous services exist.) The most difficult part of Mastodon is linking to other instances but even that just involves using the search bar.
      - BugsJustFindMe 8mo ago
        > Those differences are not so complex and confusing One might ask why Bluesky has more sign-ups and monthly active users acquired in less time even without the facestagram login power funnel that Threads has. And of course Threads has waaaaaayyy more. The evidence of what people want from a social media service is right in front of us and very clear. This reads to me very much like the timeless words of Seymour Skinner, "Am I so out of touch? No! It's the children who are wrong."
        krapp 8mo ago
        Bluesky had the benefit of marketing, association with Twitter and the support of influencers and Threads is owned by Meta and is integrated into Facebook. What is that supposed to prove, beyond that advertising companies are good at advertising themselves?
        BugsJustFindMe 8mo ago
        > Bluesky had the benefit of marketing, association with Twitter and the support of influencers Everywhere that people have ever asked why people join Bluesky and not Mastodon, the objections to Bluesky are always philosophical (not actually decentralized, corporate overlords, and so forth) and the objections to Mastodon are always practical (signup sucks[ed?], search sucks[ed?], feed curation sucks[ed?]). Bluesky's selling point has always been "like Twitter, better control, none of the bullshit of Mastodon". That's exactly why any influencers went there and not to Mastodon. Look... I'm not telling you my opinion, I'm communicating the common message given over and over and over by everyone who looked and bounced and talked about it. And when people say over and over and over that Mastodon is frustrating, and people have indeed said that over and over and over, all you need to do is believe them instead of saying they're wrong. Threads has the trifecta of like Twitter, not Twitter, connected to maybe the biggest central platform in the world.
- alsetmusic 8mo ago
  > People don't want to care about what "an instance" is which also means being asked to be aware of things like instance-specific moderation rules. I can tell you how this reads to me: "I consider myself among peers with coders, scientists, and founders. Being asked to understand pretty simple concepts is too much for me." I am a happy user of Lemmy. Was there more to understand than how to join Reddit? Yes. Is the fediverse simple enough to understand that people on HN should be viewed with incredulity when they make statements that it's too difficult / too much? Unless they're speaking about people who aren't HN commenters, also yes.
  - BugsJustFindMe 8mo ago
    > "I consider myself among peers with coders, scientists, and founders. Being asked to understand pretty simple concepts is too much for me." I think I can clarify the framing here. People of all walks are extremely uninterested in being told that they need to care about something that they do not care about. For most people, I bet almost all people, decentralization can really just get fucked, because decentralization is not what people are there for. Connection is. What federation offers is just not important to...as a percentage, almost anyone...in relation to what it removes. Think about it this way: many things are too annoying for you to put up with, even if you technically are capable of dealing with them were you willing to give more energy than you believe is reasonable to give. See also, juice vs squeeze. See also, the iron imperative of writing ("don't waste the reader's time") applies to more than just writing. Also... > "I consider myself among peers with coders, scientists, and founders." One might call it empathy to commiserate with the perspectives of people who are not those things. It's a judgement error to expect a platform to be something other than niche without that. One can also be all of those things and have zero patience for software that has an annoying user experience.
    - alsetmusic 8mo ago
      > People of all walks are extremely uninterested in being told that they need to care about something that they do not care about. You don’t care. There it is. Just say it. It’s not a crime. I’m not judging you. I’m really not. I care and it might not matter, but I do. It’s not for you. That’s ok. Don’t bag on it for reasons other than this. It’s not difficult and I don’t care if you don’t care. It’s fine.
- Yodel0914 8mo ago
  Being able to join an instance with its own culture, while still being able to connect outside that culture, is the only reason I use any social media at all. I understand it can be confusing for people coming from Twitter or Facebook or wherever, the local instance culture is Mastodon’s greatest strength. That, of course, and the lack drive to turn a profit from users.
  - BugsJustFindMe 8mo ago
    It sounds like we're on the same page. :)

rsynnott 8mo ago

I suppose define 'normies'? There are plenty of non-techies, but they're often primarily using it for a specific community.

BugsJustFindMe 8mo ago
Eh. I'm not going to defend OP's use of the term "normies". It's pejorative and fundamentally othering. > plenty of non-techies Viewing the concepts and consequences of federation (no global search, disjoint moderation by instance owners) as "tech" is a fundamental category error.