3 ms·

This is an incredibly cynical and naive take so forgive me: if repairability is such a desirable trait why are all repairable laptops utter garbage? Even Frame

by 0xy 8mo ago

This is an incredibly cynical and naive take so forgive me: if repairability is such a desirable trait why are all repairable laptops utter garbage? Even Framework has major quality issues. Thinkpads aren't like they used to be. Every single one has a TERRIBLE keyboard, TERRIBLE trackpad. Mediocre screen. Bad battery life. In principal, repairability seems good. But the least repairable laptop is also the best quality.

Rebelgecko 8mo ago
TBF, in general most laptops are garbage.
- evilduck 8mo ago
  That's not really being "fair" though. I think the point is, if everyone who cares about "repairability" constantly chooses garbage for what's usually a least used attribute of the purchase, does their opinion on any other attribute even matter? It's like choosing the most repairable food to eat.
toast0 8mo ago
For some items fit and finish can be better if things are assembled with glue/etc rather than screws; and certainly a lot less of volume. Great as long as it doesn't need to be opened. Keyboard, Trackpad, Screen are a mix of cost and taste. Apple has streamlined product offerings and each model has significant volume. Other vendors either don't have much volume (Framework) or get their volume through a multitude of models and options (Lenovo, HP, Dell), they can't justify engineering costs to get a touchpad made for them, and the Apple one isn't available. Thinkpads models have a spectrum of repairability, so Lenovo probably has some market insights there... they do tend to offer things in less and more servicable generation after generation. Apple can do well on battery life because they own the hardware design, the cpu design, the firmware, the OS, and at least some of the userland and they have only a handful of models to work with. And they have a roughly incomparable product; it's always Apples vs Oranges, so they can decide to take a 1% perf hit for a 2% battery life gain... whereas if the Lenovo Ryzen Max 390 HyperFighting laptop is 1% slower than the Dell laptop with the same chip, that's bad PR, even if there's 2% battery savings. Microsoft's own brand laptops could maybe drive better integration of OS and system, but really haven't. Microsoft is busy selling their Cloud, and stuffing Clippy into Notepad. I suspect they don't really want to compete too hard against OEMs anyway.
- 0xy 8mo ago
  The sucky components aren't even limited to one area. I really want a powerful Linux laptop that is at least decent, the problem is they don't appear to exist.
thisislife2 8mo ago
They are "garbage" (a gross exaggeration) because they don't have billions of dollars of research in designing and manufacturing them, and there is no longer standardisation of "repairable" parts (as nobody has an incentive to do so in the absence of regulation for it), which means everything is becoming more and more custom.
dangus 8mo ago
You’re super out of date at best. Please reference a great laptop review channel like Just Josh Tech and get educated. I’ve owned a Framework for a year, no quality issues. Lenovo makes many great models. You just have to look at reviews and find the right one for you. There are multiple PC laptop companies making terrific haptic trackpads that are essentially identical to Apple’s offerings, including Lenovo. Apple also unnecessarily over-relies on the trackpad in their software. It’s their scheme to get you to buy their $150 trackpad and avoid the need to compete with superior accessory manufacturers (same deal with the Touch ID keyboards, you can only buy from Apple). In reality, keyboard shortcuts on Windows and Linux are more intuitive than swiping three fingers around. The thumb and three fingers gestures on macOS are complete insanity. In reality, a $20 Bluetooth mouse tossed in your backpack has better control and precision than the best Apple trackpad imaginable (and normal mechanical trackpads are perfectly fine, especially on operating systems that don’t over-rely on the trackpad as an accessory sales gimmick). There are PC laptops shipping with screens that are better than Macs in many ways (tandem OLED). Heck, the 2026 ASUS Zenbook Duo gives you dual screens in a laptop with basically no compromises! Louis Rossman has pointed out many times that Apple’s internal component quality is nothing to write home about. Don’t forget that macOS locks you out of feature updates after 10 years since a model goes on sale. People who buy Macs have high disposable income compared to baseline and replace them before they run into hardware failures.
- 0xy 8mo ago
  The terrible support and build quality issues are all over the place. Support outright ghosts people trying to return broken stuff? What's going on here? https://old.reddit.com/r/framework/comments/1dvtqwb/after_over_two_years_of_owning_a_framework_i_love/ https://old.reddit.com/r/framework/comments/1dvtqwb/after_ov... https://old.reddit.com/r/framework/comments/1qei0ny/returning_my_fw_laptop_16_support_is_a_disaster/ https://old.reddit.com/r/framework/comments/1qei0ny/returnin... https://old.reddit.com/r/framework/comments/1of2f8s/return_support_ticket_delay/ https://old.reddit.com/r/framework/comments/1of2f8s/return_s...
  - dangus 8mo ago
    I’m sure we can find anecdotes of bad support experiences from any brand, including Apple. I’m sure Framework doesn’t have the best support out there but the great thing about the wider PC market is that they’re not the only option. I also don’t really depend on Framework support as much as I would depend on Apple support. Apple won’t sell parts direct to consumers. Dell will come to your house to fix their business class systems, will Apple do that? Apple has great support but it costs you. After your year of warranty is up, you’re paying above the value of your system to fix most issues, or you can buy AppleCare (insurance) for hundreds of dollars. Funny timing for this discussion, I just this week got my second settlement check from the Apple butterfly keyboard class action lawsuit. Apple sold me a computer with a fundamentally defective design and all they could do for me is repair it with the same fundamentally defective keyboard design. No refund, no trade in for a revised product. I had to sell that computer to have any hope of keeping a machine I could be comfortable with long term.

by 0xy 8mo ago

Rebelgecko 8mo ago

TBF, in general most laptops are garbage.

evilduck 8mo ago
That's not really being "fair" though. I think the point is, if everyone who cares about "repairability" constantly chooses garbage for what's usually a least used attribute of the purchase, does their opinion on any other attribute even matter? It's like choosing the most repairable food to eat.

toast0 8mo ago

For some items fit and finish can be better if things are assembled with glue/etc rather than screws; and certainly a lot less of volume. Great as long as it doesn't need to be opened. Keyboard, Trackpad, Screen are a mix of cost and taste. Apple has streamlined product offerings and each model has significant volume. Other vendors either don't have much volume (Framework) or get their volume through a multitude of models and options (Lenovo, HP, Dell), they can't justify engineering costs to get a touchpad made for them, and the Apple one isn't available. Thinkpads models have a spectrum of repairability, so Lenovo probably has some market insights there... they do tend to offer things in less and more servicable generation after generation. Apple can do well on battery life because they own the hardware design, the cpu design, the firmware, the OS, and at least some of the userland and they have only a handful of models to work with. And they have a roughly incomparable product; it's always Apples vs Oranges, so they can decide to take a 1% perf hit for a 2% battery life gain... whereas if the Lenovo Ryzen Max 390 HyperFighting laptop is 1% slower than the Dell laptop with the same chip, that's bad PR, even if there's 2% battery savings. Microsoft's own brand laptops could maybe drive better integration of OS and system, but really haven't. Microsoft is busy selling their Cloud, and stuffing Clippy into Notepad. I suspect they don't really want to compete too hard against OEMs anyway.

0xy 8mo ago
The sucky components aren't even limited to one area. I really want a powerful Linux laptop that is at least decent, the problem is they don't appear to exist.

thisislife2 8mo ago

They are "garbage" (a gross exaggeration) because they don't have billions of dollars of research in designing and manufacturing them, and there is no longer standardisation of "repairable" parts (as nobody has an incentive to do so in the absence of regulation for it), which means everything is becoming more and more custom.

dangus 8mo ago

You’re super out of date at best. Please reference a great laptop review channel like Just Josh Tech and get educated. I’ve owned a Framework for a year, no quality issues. Lenovo makes many great models. You just have to look at reviews and find the right one for you. There are multiple PC laptop companies making terrific haptic trackpads that are essentially identical to Apple’s offerings, including Lenovo. Apple also unnecessarily over-relies on the trackpad in their software. It’s their scheme to get you to buy their $150 trackpad and avoid the need to compete with superior accessory manufacturers (same deal with the Touch ID keyboards, you can only buy from Apple). In reality, keyboard shortcuts on Windows and Linux are more intuitive than swiping three fingers around. The thumb and three fingers gestures on macOS are complete insanity. In reality, a $20 Bluetooth mouse tossed in your backpack has better control and precision than the best Apple trackpad imaginable (and normal mechanical trackpads are perfectly fine, especially on operating systems that don’t over-rely on the trackpad as an accessory sales gimmick). There are PC laptops shipping with screens that are better than Macs in many ways (tandem OLED). Heck, the 2026 ASUS Zenbook Duo gives you dual screens in a laptop with basically no compromises! Louis Rossman has pointed out many times that Apple’s internal component quality is nothing to write home about. Don’t forget that macOS locks you out of feature updates after 10 years since a model goes on sale. People who buy Macs have high disposable income compared to baseline and replace them before they run into hardware failures.

0xy 8mo ago
The terrible support and build quality issues are all over the place. Support outright ghosts people trying to return broken stuff? What's going on here? https://old.reddit.com/r/framework/comments/1dvtqwb/after_over_two_years_of_owning_a_framework_i_love/ https://old.reddit.com/r/framework/comments/1dvtqwb/after_ov... https://old.reddit.com/r/framework/comments/1qei0ny/returning_my_fw_laptop_16_support_is_a_disaster/ https://old.reddit.com/r/framework/comments/1qei0ny/returnin... https://old.reddit.com/r/framework/comments/1of2f8s/return_support_ticket_delay/ https://old.reddit.com/r/framework/comments/1of2f8s/return_s...
- dangus 8mo ago
  I’m sure we can find anecdotes of bad support experiences from any brand, including Apple. I’m sure Framework doesn’t have the best support out there but the great thing about the wider PC market is that they’re not the only option. I also don’t really depend on Framework support as much as I would depend on Apple support. Apple won’t sell parts direct to consumers. Dell will come to your house to fix their business class systems, will Apple do that? Apple has great support but it costs you. After your year of warranty is up, you’re paying above the value of your system to fix most issues, or you can buy AppleCare (insurance) for hundreds of dollars. Funny timing for this discussion, I just this week got my second settlement check from the Apple butterfly keyboard class action lawsuit. Apple sold me a computer with a fundamentally defective design and all they could do for me is repair it with the same fundamentally defective keyboard design. No refund, no trade in for a revised product. I had to sell that computer to have any hope of keeping a machine I could be comfortable with long term.