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I think a tragic mistake like this was foreseeable (in a vague sense), but I highly doubt that anyone intentionally bombed an elementary school full of children

I think a tragic mistake like this was foreseeable (in a vague sense), but I highly doubt that anyone intentionally bombed an elementary school full of children. The NYT had some good reporting on this, and you can see how the mistake was made. The elementary school used to be part of the IRGC base until 2016. Then it was fenced off and made an elementary school. The “shooter” (in this case, the USA) had a duty to check that the target was currently a valid military target. This verification, if it was done at all, was clearly the problem. I’m sure you have someone directly responsible for this mistake who is going to have a hard time living with themselves. But like I said, starting a war leads to inevitable tragedy, and I doubt the people who are indirectly responsible will ever recognize their culpability in this.

ryandrake 7mo ago
It really doesn't matter whether it was a mistake or how the mistake was made. If it were your kid's elementary school that got blown up, would you say "Oh, well, it wasn't intentional. The bad guys just had outdated intelligence. These things happen."
- kgwgk 7mo ago
  > It really doesn't matter whether it was a mistake It does matter if people go around saying that “they want death, so they are bombing shit indiscriminately.”
  - surgical_fire 7mo ago
    > “they want death, so they are bombing shit indiscriminately.” It's still the most probable explanation
    - SauntSolaire 7mo ago
      Disagree, negligence seems more likely
      - surgical_fire 7mo ago
        https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/hegseth-insists-the-iran-conflict-is-not-iraq-and-is-not-endless https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/hegseth-insists-the-iran-... "No stupid rules of engagement, no nation building quagmire, no democracy building exercise, no politically correct wars. We fight to win, and we don't waste time or lives," Hegseth said. Words of your Secretary of War, not mine. This is not a woke war. This is a war where you bomb schools and kill children.
        ryandrake 7mo ago
        The ridiculous renaming to "Department of War" supports this attitude, as well. They're declaring to everyone our intent to be belligerents. That the US military is meant to be aggressors and instigators, rather than defenders. All signs point to an administration bent on aggression and destruction. I mean, to be fair, the US always has been the instigators, but it's now official, something this administration is proud of.
        SauntSolaire 7mo ago
        And? It's quite a leap to take from that statement that they intentionally bombed a school. In fact, if they were trying to bomb schools, then it's quite the coincidence that they missed all the rest, and just happened to hit the one that used to be a military base.
        donkeybeer 7mo ago
        They made it as clear as possible they don't give a shit about collateral damage. You have some very immense reading difficulties.
        SauntSolaire 7mo ago
        Surgical_fire wrote: "Hitting a school was not a mistake, it was the point." And "This is not a woke war. This is a war where you bomb schools and kill children." I also never said they especially cared about collateral damage, try not to project your opinions onto other people's comments.
  - xrd 7mo ago
    I'm not sure how "they want war, so they are bombing negligently" is any different. Or morally better.
    - Sabinus 7mo ago
      It's not, but that's not what the USA wants. They want Iran to stop destabilising the ME, and to eliminate the threat to the USA consisting of the Iranian nuke program, the ballistic missile program, and the religious zeal to use them. What on earth makes you assert the USA just 'wants war'? If this war goes on for too long Trump is cooked. He'll lose the election and might even be unpopular enough to cop the persecution he deserves.
      - mullingitover 7mo ago
        > What on earth makes you assert the USA just 'wants war'? The "Department of War" they created before promptly starting an absolute textbook War of Aggression is evidence beyond a reasonable doubt that the war was premeditated.
      - surgical_fire 7mo ago
        > stop destabilising the ME USA is the destabilizing force. In the case of Iran specifically, what happenes today is in many ways a consequence of the 1953 coup.
      - etc-hosts 7mo ago
        > They want Iran to stop destabilising the ME, and to eliminate the threat to the USA consisting of the Iranian nuke program, the ballistic missile program, and the religious zeal to use them. US and Israeli leaders have said recently that the war will continue until Iran is not a threat, for mostly the exact reasons you just listed. I'm not sure how you bomb the religious zeal out of someone. I was listening to a fairly right wing British pundit today, who is very publicly funded by British and European NATO interests, he said that the US saying they will continue to bomb Iran until it is not a threat reminded him a lot of one of Russia's state Ukraine war goals of "we will de-Nazify Ukraine". very open ended nebulous goals with the benefit of being easily stretched around any agenda the invading party has at the moment.
- colonCapitalDee 7mo ago
  You're intentionally missing the point. Every time a bomb drops we're rolling the dice. Hits on civilian targets are inevitable, just like bugs are inevitable. The only solution is not to go to war at all. Don't blame the person who dropped the bomb, blame the people who ordered the bombs to be dropped.
surgical_fire 7mo ago
No, I firmly believe that decades of dehumanization of Iranians in particular and Muslims in general makes this sort of "tragic mistake" desirable. I don't think whoever was responsible for this gives many fucks about the lives of Iranians. If a foreign power bombed anything in the US and children died people would just consider them monsters, without further considerations. No one would be pondering about faulty intel. I refuse to launder the vileness of the aggressors here.
mrguyorama 7mo ago
>but I highly doubt that anyone intentionally bombed an elementary school full of children Hegseth said to your face "No stupid rules of engagement", "This is not a politically correct war" These are the people who have been purposely and loudly defending Israel bombing innocent people. They genuinely believe, as they say to your face, that it is important and necessary to be brutal and extreme to win war. Intentionally disregarding rules of engagement and protecting innocent life IS intentionally bombing that school. Civilian casualties are a reality of war and the best you can do is work your ass off to reduce them, so openly advocating for NOT doing that is intentionally killing people.
- _alternator_ 7mo ago
  Trust me, I’m not trying to defend the leadership of the DoW. But I do believe that there is a difference between reckless indifference and actually intentionally bombing a girls school. Both sound like war crimes to me, but the latter sounds implausible given the known facts. Let’s not redefine words like ‘intentional’ just because we are appalled. Giving something awful an “awfuller” name is not going to help.

ryandrake 7mo ago

It really doesn't matter whether it was a mistake or how the mistake was made. If it were your kid's elementary school that got blown up, would you say "Oh, well, it wasn't intentional. The bad guys just had outdated intelligence. These things happen."

kgwgk 7mo ago
> It really doesn't matter whether it was a mistake It does matter if people go around saying that “they want death, so they are bombing shit indiscriminately.”
- surgical_fire 7mo ago
  > “they want death, so they are bombing shit indiscriminately.” It's still the most probable explanation
  - SauntSolaire 7mo ago
    Disagree, negligence seems more likely
    - surgical_fire 7mo ago
      https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/hegseth-insists-the-iran-conflict-is-not-iraq-and-is-not-endless https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/hegseth-insists-the-iran-... "No stupid rules of engagement, no nation building quagmire, no democracy building exercise, no politically correct wars. We fight to win, and we don't waste time or lives," Hegseth said. Words of your Secretary of War, not mine. This is not a woke war. This is a war where you bomb schools and kill children.
      - ryandrake 7mo ago
        The ridiculous renaming to "Department of War" supports this attitude, as well. They're declaring to everyone our intent to be belligerents. That the US military is meant to be aggressors and instigators, rather than defenders. All signs point to an administration bent on aggression and destruction. I mean, to be fair, the US always has been the instigators, but it's now official, something this administration is proud of.
      - SauntSolaire 7mo ago
        And? It's quite a leap to take from that statement that they intentionally bombed a school. In fact, if they were trying to bomb schools, then it's quite the coincidence that they missed all the rest, and just happened to hit the one that used to be a military base.
        donkeybeer 7mo ago
        They made it as clear as possible they don't give a shit about collateral damage. You have some very immense reading difficulties.
        SauntSolaire 7mo ago
        Surgical_fire wrote: "Hitting a school was not a mistake, it was the point." And "This is not a woke war. This is a war where you bomb schools and kill children." I also never said they especially cared about collateral damage, try not to project your opinions onto other people's comments.
- xrd 7mo ago
  I'm not sure how "they want war, so they are bombing negligently" is any different. Or morally better.
  - Sabinus 7mo ago
    It's not, but that's not what the USA wants. They want Iran to stop destabilising the ME, and to eliminate the threat to the USA consisting of the Iranian nuke program, the ballistic missile program, and the religious zeal to use them. What on earth makes you assert the USA just 'wants war'? If this war goes on for too long Trump is cooked. He'll lose the election and might even be unpopular enough to cop the persecution he deserves.
    - mullingitover 7mo ago
      > What on earth makes you assert the USA just 'wants war'? The "Department of War" they created before promptly starting an absolute textbook War of Aggression is evidence beyond a reasonable doubt that the war was premeditated.
    - surgical_fire 7mo ago
      > stop destabilising the ME USA is the destabilizing force. In the case of Iran specifically, what happenes today is in many ways a consequence of the 1953 coup.
    - etc-hosts 7mo ago
      > They want Iran to stop destabilising the ME, and to eliminate the threat to the USA consisting of the Iranian nuke program, the ballistic missile program, and the religious zeal to use them. US and Israeli leaders have said recently that the war will continue until Iran is not a threat, for mostly the exact reasons you just listed. I'm not sure how you bomb the religious zeal out of someone. I was listening to a fairly right wing British pundit today, who is very publicly funded by British and European NATO interests, he said that the US saying they will continue to bomb Iran until it is not a threat reminded him a lot of one of Russia's state Ukraine war goals of "we will de-Nazify Ukraine". very open ended nebulous goals with the benefit of being easily stretched around any agenda the invading party has at the moment.
colonCapitalDee 7mo ago
You're intentionally missing the point. Every time a bomb drops we're rolling the dice. Hits on civilian targets are inevitable, just like bugs are inevitable. The only solution is not to go to war at all. Don't blame the person who dropped the bomb, blame the people who ordered the bombs to be dropped.

surgical_fire 7mo ago

No, I firmly believe that decades of dehumanization of Iranians in particular and Muslims in general makes this sort of "tragic mistake" desirable. I don't think whoever was responsible for this gives many fucks about the lives of Iranians. If a foreign power bombed anything in the US and children died people would just consider them monsters, without further considerations. No one would be pondering about faulty intel. I refuse to launder the vileness of the aggressors here.

mrguyorama 7mo ago

>but I highly doubt that anyone intentionally bombed an elementary school full of children Hegseth said to your face "No stupid rules of engagement", "This is not a politically correct war" These are the people who have been purposely and loudly defending Israel bombing innocent people. They genuinely believe, as they say to your face, that it is important and necessary to be brutal and extreme to win war. Intentionally disregarding rules of engagement and protecting innocent life IS intentionally bombing that school. Civilian casualties are a reality of war and the best you can do is work your ass off to reduce them, so openly advocating for NOT doing that is intentionally killing people.

_alternator_ 7mo ago
Trust me, I’m not trying to defend the leadership of the DoW. But I do believe that there is a difference between reckless indifference and actually intentionally bombing a girls school. Both sound like war crimes to me, but the latter sounds implausible given the known facts. Let’s not redefine words like ‘intentional’ just because we are appalled. Giving something awful an “awfuller” name is not going to help.