4 ms·

It’s largely impossible now, it’s not a technical problem, it’s cultural. UO forced many different types of players to coexist in the same world that simply do

It’s largely impossible now, it’s not a technical problem, it’s cultural. UO forced many different types of players to coexist in the same world that simply do not mix anymore. You had peaceful dungeon crawlers and craftsmen coexisting alongside killers, rapists, thieves (wild that stealing items from other players inventory was actually a thing, probably unheard of in today’s MMOs). The friction between these different types of players is where the magic happened, it’s what created real conflict and higher stakes in the world. When you stepped out of your house, there was always a risk that killers could be lurking ready to murder you and loot your house dry. And if you forget to lock the door, someone passing by will clean your house out for anything valuable. In a way, old school UO was a true Middle Ages type MMO, everything since then has only grown more civilized, more enshittified. People don’t want to pay for a world that doesn’t give a shit if they have a bad experience. The truth is though there was no “bad experience”, it was all just an experience.

stackghost 8mo ago
>The truth is though there was no “bad experience”, it was all just an experience. I mean there absolutely were bad experiences. Griefing drove lots of players away, which is why they implemented Trammel.
- deadbabe 8mo ago
  Grief is a natural consequence of player freedom, but it’s not worth giving up that freedom for some safety.
  - Barrin92 8mo ago
    turns out it is for a lot of players which is why the kind of game is extinct. Just like in the real world, there's a fine line between risk and adventure and walking into something that looks like Liu Cixin's the Dark Forest. You want enough friction to generate interesting interactions, you don't want so much freedom that the worst exploiters start to crowd out every honest player, because then, just like in a rundown lawless neighborhood, you're getting a lesson in the broken window theory and you're only left with the scammers.
  - pjc50 8mo ago
    Players don't want to be continually victimized. That game design drives away all but a tiny minority of players.
  - jghn 8mo ago
    That's great until a game designer discovers that grief chases away the majority of players, and the griefers themselves will leave if they have no one to grief. So from a philosophical perspective sure you're right. But from a dollars and cents perspective it's just good business to find ways to legislate griefing out of games. And that's why the market moved the direction it did.
  - JoshTriplett 8mo ago
    There are games that managed to allow PvP while also having places players can be safe, whether axiomatically, or by having enough players interested in providing protection that there are safe locations you can count on not being attacked because anyone trying will be quickly caught.
- mapt 8mo ago
  You approach that from a game design perspective to reduce the reward and set bounds on how much fun a player is allowed to destroy maliciously and what kind of counterplay is available, but if you completely eliminate it the world loses a lot of its drama. Conflict drives narrative.
  - jghn 8mo ago
    I know Raph Koster has spent a lot of time since he designed UO thinking about this problem. I haven't looked at his current project but am curious to what extent he's licked this issue.
haolez 8mo ago
These are the words and thoughts that I couldn't organize myself. Thank you for that. Fully agree.
codezero 8mo ago
Oh boy, you reminded me of the tag teamers where a pick pocket would steal your bag of runes (that you use to teleport to safety), then attack you while you try to fumble a teleport back home, only to find you can't locate your bag of runes. The defense to this was to carry dozens upon dozens of nested bags, because each bag opening could trip the pick pocket detection. Also the defense to your home was to literally circle it in tents/buildings creating an empty courtyard that you could only teleport into with a rune you kept safely in your bank box. There were some warping bugs that would allow you into a courtyard though, or even through the front door (circle of visibility bug, as well as floor tile warping).
- knicholes 8mo ago
  Stealing black pearl was great because it prevented recall AND energy bolt!
  - jghn 8mo ago
    don't forget that Corp Por was not always the dominant combat spell. For instance there was the An Mani era of combat, and while i don't remember their names bot lightning bolt and meteor swarm were the dominant combat spell for a while as well
    - knicholes 8mo ago
      Por Ort Grav, of course! Never saw meteor swarm being used.
      - jghn 8mo ago
        Aha, yes! And it looks like meteor swarm was Kal Des Flam Ylem). Its time to shine was short lived, I want to say it didn't even last the entirety of October '94. At the time it was out of reach of most toons anyways, but each individual meteor was close to instakill, plus it was AoE. The downside of course was it was AoE and friendly fire would make you red. I remember one time in that time range getting called in because an argument was brewing between some guild mates and another guild in some dungeon. I arrived, decided to end the argument with a meteor swarm, promptly killed literally everyone from both guilds due to the AoE, and was a dread lord for a while. Needless to say, not how I drew it up on the board!
tagami 8mo ago
"bank guards vendor buy"

stackghost 8mo ago

>The truth is though there was no “bad experience”, it was all just an experience. I mean there absolutely were bad experiences. Griefing drove lots of players away, which is why they implemented Trammel.

deadbabe 8mo ago
Grief is a natural consequence of player freedom, but it’s not worth giving up that freedom for some safety.
- Barrin92 8mo ago
  turns out it is for a lot of players which is why the kind of game is extinct. Just like in the real world, there's a fine line between risk and adventure and walking into something that looks like Liu Cixin's the Dark Forest. You want enough friction to generate interesting interactions, you don't want so much freedom that the worst exploiters start to crowd out every honest player, because then, just like in a rundown lawless neighborhood, you're getting a lesson in the broken window theory and you're only left with the scammers.
- pjc50 8mo ago
  Players don't want to be continually victimized. That game design drives away all but a tiny minority of players.
- jghn 8mo ago
  That's great until a game designer discovers that grief chases away the majority of players, and the griefers themselves will leave if they have no one to grief. So from a philosophical perspective sure you're right. But from a dollars and cents perspective it's just good business to find ways to legislate griefing out of games. And that's why the market moved the direction it did.
- JoshTriplett 8mo ago
  There are games that managed to allow PvP while also having places players can be safe, whether axiomatically, or by having enough players interested in providing protection that there are safe locations you can count on not being attacked because anyone trying will be quickly caught.
mapt 8mo ago
You approach that from a game design perspective to reduce the reward and set bounds on how much fun a player is allowed to destroy maliciously and what kind of counterplay is available, but if you completely eliminate it the world loses a lot of its drama. Conflict drives narrative.
- jghn 8mo ago
  I know Raph Koster has spent a lot of time since he designed UO thinking about this problem. I haven't looked at his current project but am curious to what extent he's licked this issue.

haolez 8mo ago

These are the words and thoughts that I couldn't organize myself. Thank you for that. Fully agree.

codezero 8mo ago

Oh boy, you reminded me of the tag teamers where a pick pocket would steal your bag of runes (that you use to teleport to safety), then attack you while you try to fumble a teleport back home, only to find you can't locate your bag of runes. The defense to this was to carry dozens upon dozens of nested bags, because each bag opening could trip the pick pocket detection. Also the defense to your home was to literally circle it in tents/buildings creating an empty courtyard that you could only teleport into with a rune you kept safely in your bank box. There were some warping bugs that would allow you into a courtyard though, or even through the front door (circle of visibility bug, as well as floor tile warping).

knicholes 8mo ago
Stealing black pearl was great because it prevented recall AND energy bolt!
- jghn 8mo ago
  don't forget that Corp Por was not always the dominant combat spell. For instance there was the An Mani era of combat, and while i don't remember their names bot lightning bolt and meteor swarm were the dominant combat spell for a while as well
  - knicholes 8mo ago
    Por Ort Grav, of course! Never saw meteor swarm being used.
    - jghn 8mo ago
      Aha, yes! And it looks like meteor swarm was Kal Des Flam Ylem). Its time to shine was short lived, I want to say it didn't even last the entirety of October '94. At the time it was out of reach of most toons anyways, but each individual meteor was close to instakill, plus it was AoE. The downside of course was it was AoE and friendly fire would make you red. I remember one time in that time range getting called in because an argument was brewing between some guild mates and another guild in some dungeon. I arrived, decided to end the argument with a meteor swarm, promptly killed literally everyone from both guilds due to the AoE, and was a dread lord for a while. Needless to say, not how I drew it up on the board!

tagami 8mo ago

"bank guards vendor buy"