4 ms·

People keep making this strange claim about Taiwan, the only liberal democracy in the East without a single American soldier on its soil. Almost like Taiwan is

by komali2 8mo ago

People keep making this strange claim about Taiwan, the only liberal democracy in the East without a single American soldier on its soil. Almost like Taiwan is a sovereign nation uninterested in participating in the PRC and USA's fight for global hegemony.

godelski 8mo ago
I think the funniest part is the fact that all the western countries are even afraid to recognize Taiwan's independence. It's a much better argument to say Korea or Japan are ruled by the US (and Korea and Japan absolutely hate one another!). Does the US have influence in Taiwan? Certainly! But if that meant Taiwan was the US's puppet then Taiwan would simultaneously be China's puppet. Schrödinger's Vassal
- dotancohen 8mo ago
  > afraid to recognize Taiwan's independence. Does Taiwan claim independence? I thought that both the government in Beijing and the government in Taipei both claim that all of China is united, and that they are the legitimate government of that united entity.
  - XorNot 8mo ago
    Taiwan buys military equipment and operates it's own military very much like it is independent of China and views Chinese troops in it's territory as a threat.
    - dotancohen 7mo ago
      Correct. However "in it's territory" includes inside mainland China.
  - YZF 8mo ago
    You're arguing semantics. The west refuses to recognize Taiwan as the legitimate government of China and refuses to recognize it as an independent country. Whatever they claim, the west (and most of the world) due to Chinese leverage/power refuses to recognize. Taiwan meets all the criteria for being a state. It controls land, population, it has a military, it has a government, currency, passports etc. etc. It's a de-facto country/state.
    - dotancohen 7mo ago
      It's not semantics if Taiwan itself does not claim independence.
  - godelski 8mo ago
    You literally described independence. You're confusing land with governance.
    - dotancohen 7mo ago
      I'm not. You'll notice that I used the terms correctly. The government in Taipei claims all of mainland China and The island of Taiwan are united and a single state. As does the government in Beijing.
      - godelski 7mo ago
        So you think North and South Korea are the same country? If not, which is the rightful country and which is the rebel? They both claim the same territory and that the other is illegitimate. Do you think India and Pakistan are the same country? Or at least parts? There's a lot of disputed territories there. Or do you believe Palestine is independent from Israel? They sure claim independence and Israel claims it's theirs. Or what about the USA? The British sure thought it was theirs for a long time. Should France not have gotten involved in all of that?
        dotancohen 7mo ago
        > So you think North and South Korea are the same country? If not, which is the rightful country and which is the rebel? They both claim the same territory and that the other is illegitimate. I know not enough about the conflict to declare which side is more justified. > Do you think India and Pakistan are the same country? Or at least parts? There's a lot of disputed territories there. Again, I know too little about the conflict. > Or do you believe Palestine is independent from Israel? They sure claim independence and Israel claims it's theirs. The Arab citizens of the holy land did not declare a state when the former ruling party (the Brits) left, the Jews did declare a state. The Arabs even rejected the UN partition plan and decided that the fate of the area would be determined by war instead. Which they lost, and though they had some territory after the war they _still_ did not declare a state on that land. Only 15 years later did they form a government and an identity, and yet still did not declare a state. Only after the Israelis conquered the lands in yet another war, and then almost thirty years after that, did they declare a state with provisional borders. And they have rejected every final borders proposition made to them since. And during that entire time, they have been murdering civilians, both Jews and those who support peace with the Jews. So yes, clearly in Area A the Palestinians have limited sovereignty - limited only because they consistently refuse all attempts to provide them more sovereignty. > Or what about the USA? The British sure thought it was theirs for a long time. Should France not have gotten involved in all of that? Perhaps the French should not have gotten involved. I can imagine an alternate history where the British rule over the North American continent. The great result of the American Revolution wasn't the independent United States. The great result of the American Revolution was the implementation of a government based upon secular values and equality for all before the law. And even with the tools in place to implement that government, it still took almost two hundred years to enshrine those values into society. And now, a mere two generations later, people have forgotten how hard the Americans worked to build that society and they are willing - active even - to discard it because of the few remaining minor deviations from perfection.
- dismalaf 8mo ago
  > afraid to recognize Taiwan's independence No one is afraid. Taiwan themselves still claim to be the Republic of China and not separate from the rest of China.
  - godelski 8mo ago
    > No one is afraid. You seem to have trouble reading. Here's a map that shows countries that recognize Taiwan's independence[0]. That's a lot of gray... > Taiwan themselves still claim to be the Republic of China and not separate from the rest of China. You seem very confused... but I get it, it is confusing Mainland China's current government is called the "People's Republic of China" (PRC)[1] Taiwan calls itself the "Republic of China" (RoC)[2] The difference of one word is very important. It's easy to miss, which is why Taiwan even changed its passport[3]... over a decade ago. But also... they issue different passports. They have different governments. Really, this is not hard to understand that Taiwan considers themselves independent and the PRC considers the RoC a bunch of rebels. And... what do rebels typically do? [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_recognition_of_Taiwan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_recognition_of_T... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proclamation_of_the_People%27s_Republic_of_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proclamation_of_the_People%27s... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan [3] http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/1758230.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/1758230.stm
    - DiogenesKynikos 7mo ago
      The Taiwanese government still officially considers itself the government of all of China, not just of Taiwan and a few outlying islands.
      - komali2 7mo ago
        This is false. You will finally google this claim you've been repeating without evidence, and realize there's no supporting evidence for this claim. I guarantee it, because there is no evidence for this claim.
leptons 8mo ago
The US would already be at war with China if the US tried to insert a military base in Taiwan.

by komali2 8mo ago

godelski 8mo ago

I think the funniest part is the fact that all the western countries are even afraid to recognize Taiwan's independence. It's a much better argument to say Korea or Japan are ruled by the US (and Korea and Japan absolutely hate one another!). Does the US have influence in Taiwan? Certainly! But if that meant Taiwan was the US's puppet then Taiwan would simultaneously be China's puppet. Schrödinger's Vassal

dotancohen 8mo ago
> afraid to recognize Taiwan's independence. Does Taiwan claim independence? I thought that both the government in Beijing and the government in Taipei both claim that all of China is united, and that they are the legitimate government of that united entity.
- XorNot 8mo ago
  Taiwan buys military equipment and operates it's own military very much like it is independent of China and views Chinese troops in it's territory as a threat.
  - dotancohen 7mo ago
    Correct. However "in it's territory" includes inside mainland China.
- YZF 8mo ago
  You're arguing semantics. The west refuses to recognize Taiwan as the legitimate government of China and refuses to recognize it as an independent country. Whatever they claim, the west (and most of the world) due to Chinese leverage/power refuses to recognize. Taiwan meets all the criteria for being a state. It controls land, population, it has a military, it has a government, currency, passports etc. etc. It's a de-facto country/state.
  - dotancohen 7mo ago
    It's not semantics if Taiwan itself does not claim independence.
- godelski 8mo ago
  You literally described independence. You're confusing land with governance.
  - dotancohen 7mo ago
    I'm not. You'll notice that I used the terms correctly. The government in Taipei claims all of mainland China and The island of Taiwan are united and a single state. As does the government in Beijing.
    - godelski 7mo ago
      So you think North and South Korea are the same country? If not, which is the rightful country and which is the rebel? They both claim the same territory and that the other is illegitimate. Do you think India and Pakistan are the same country? Or at least parts? There's a lot of disputed territories there. Or do you believe Palestine is independent from Israel? They sure claim independence and Israel claims it's theirs. Or what about the USA? The British sure thought it was theirs for a long time. Should France not have gotten involved in all of that?
      - dotancohen 7mo ago
        > So you think North and South Korea are the same country? If not, which is the rightful country and which is the rebel? They both claim the same territory and that the other is illegitimate. I know not enough about the conflict to declare which side is more justified. > Do you think India and Pakistan are the same country? Or at least parts? There's a lot of disputed territories there. Again, I know too little about the conflict. > Or do you believe Palestine is independent from Israel? They sure claim independence and Israel claims it's theirs. The Arab citizens of the holy land did not declare a state when the former ruling party (the Brits) left, the Jews did declare a state. The Arabs even rejected the UN partition plan and decided that the fate of the area would be determined by war instead. Which they lost, and though they had some territory after the war they _still_ did not declare a state on that land. Only 15 years later did they form a government and an identity, and yet still did not declare a state. Only after the Israelis conquered the lands in yet another war, and then almost thirty years after that, did they declare a state with provisional borders. And they have rejected every final borders proposition made to them since. And during that entire time, they have been murdering civilians, both Jews and those who support peace with the Jews. So yes, clearly in Area A the Palestinians have limited sovereignty - limited only because they consistently refuse all attempts to provide them more sovereignty. > Or what about the USA? The British sure thought it was theirs for a long time. Should France not have gotten involved in all of that? Perhaps the French should not have gotten involved. I can imagine an alternate history where the British rule over the North American continent. The great result of the American Revolution wasn't the independent United States. The great result of the American Revolution was the implementation of a government based upon secular values and equality for all before the law. And even with the tools in place to implement that government, it still took almost two hundred years to enshrine those values into society. And now, a mere two generations later, people have forgotten how hard the Americans worked to build that society and they are willing - active even - to discard it because of the few remaining minor deviations from perfection.
dismalaf 8mo ago
> afraid to recognize Taiwan's independence No one is afraid. Taiwan themselves still claim to be the Republic of China and not separate from the rest of China.
- godelski 8mo ago
  > No one is afraid. You seem to have trouble reading. Here's a map that shows countries that recognize Taiwan's independence[0]. That's a lot of gray... > Taiwan themselves still claim to be the Republic of China and not separate from the rest of China. You seem very confused... but I get it, it is confusing Mainland China's current government is called the "People's Republic of China" (PRC)[1] Taiwan calls itself the "Republic of China" (RoC)[2] The difference of one word is very important. It's easy to miss, which is why Taiwan even changed its passport[3]... over a decade ago. But also... they issue different passports. They have different governments. Really, this is not hard to understand that Taiwan considers themselves independent and the PRC considers the RoC a bunch of rebels. And... what do rebels typically do? [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_recognition_of_Taiwan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_recognition_of_T... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proclamation_of_the_People%27s_Republic_of_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proclamation_of_the_People%27s... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan [3] http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/1758230.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/1758230.stm
  - DiogenesKynikos 7mo ago
    The Taiwanese government still officially considers itself the government of all of China, not just of Taiwan and a few outlying islands.
    - komali2 7mo ago
      This is false. You will finally google this claim you've been repeating without evidence, and realize there's no supporting evidence for this claim. I guarantee it, because there is no evidence for this claim.

leptons 8mo ago

The US would already be at war with China if the US tried to insert a military base in Taiwan.